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National Championships 2017 Discussion
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| Booker |
Posted on 12-05-2018 11:40
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 875
Joined: 03-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Well Hacecky was disappointing in the Czech TT - not wholly out of character with him this year though 
Thanks for all the reports guys, makes for very interesting reading, even if Kulczyk isn't represented.
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| Roman |
Posted on 12-05-2018 12:07
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4386
Joined: 29-05-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Didn't like the Colombian race. The fake riders shouldn't be forming the train if there are other teams with 4-5 real riders.
My tests clearly showed that AI is still broken if you don't add these fake riders to all teams. It would be boring breakaway win every time unless we have multiple teams able to control the pace in the peloton. And I believe almost no NCs have more teams strong enough to control the peloton. Was testing German Champs - it was a breakaway win almost every attempt.
And yeah, I don't like fake riders taking the part in the actual report as well, but this is somewhat a problem only in flat course, where these riders can survive in the peloton. In all other terrains they won't ever matter for the final outcome of the race. On the other way teams with multiple real riders should stll have an advantage over these fake riders, they should be able to put together a way more powerful sprint train or if their rider attacks, they have a big chance if rival teams can't control the pace of the peloton.
tastasol wrote:
Not sure if I'm completly sold on the fake riders idea tbh. Racing is much better, but almost every win to the favourite (or at least top three favourite) and no one really making their strong teams count for much against riders without a strong team. Might be about the distance, I don't know, but for me, a NC should be a little bit unpredictable, and not just the favourites riding together to the last hill/sprint etc. Then again, the previous system had some big flaws as well with some horrible racing. But at the moment it kinda feels a bit too predictable for my liking.
You may be right about too preditable races. Partially this could be due too predictable courses this year, so this could be potentially somehow improved for the next year. But the major problem here is this - and that will be hard to change - majority of NCs have big difference in quality of main favourites. For more interesting racing we could possibly link automatically smaller countries' champs into regional champs. Maybe we could have joint CZE+SVK champ like we have in real world, if we follow this model around the world, it could both lower the amount of reports needed and potentially give us more interesting racing.
Vien wrote:
How about only adding riders in smaller NCs? Maybe up to 50?
This would not help us at all. The result almost everywhere would be a boring breakaway win. PCM15 can't handle both small peloton and small team lineups like at all.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 12:14
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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I guess for flat races we could add a super-powered pace-setting control rider then leave the riders to it for the sprint - but that eradicates any breakaway chances which isn't ideal at all.
As for predictable races, the best way I can think of is longer stages, but long stages = long reports = more time taken for each.
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 12-05-2018 12:18
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
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Did you also test it with adding fake teams but not adding fake riders to existing teams?
For the two races my team was in, CZE and COL, I saw two major problems:
- CZE: Moser couldn't dominate because the one man teams had support they shouldn't have. Konig and Cerny got protected throughout the race by teammates that shouldn't have been there.
- COL: Fake riders set up a sprint train while it should've been Minions, Azteca or WCC to do that.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Aquarius97 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 12:19
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4191
Joined: 13-09-2015
PCM$: 300.00
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jandal7 wrote:
As for predictable races, the best way I can think of is longer stages, but long stages = long reports = more time taken for each.
Or more different types of routes, like hills with flat finish, hilly cobbles, mon/hill 50% races. Something that might allow other types of riders to fight for wins that aren't the straight top climbers/puncheur/sprinters.
So instead of having 4 choices for routes, having 7-8 choices?
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| jt1109 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 12:29
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3214
Joined: 23-07-2008
PCM$: 400.00
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Very happy with the Canadian race best one there's been great winner happy with that Roman thanks for the idea also worked well in the U.S. champs |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 12:31
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Did you also test it with adding fake teams but not adding fake riders to existing teams?
For the two races my team was in, CZE and COL, I saw two major problems:
- CZE: Moser couldn't dominate because the one man teams had support they shouldn't have. Konig and Cerny got protected throughout the race by teammates that shouldn't have been there.
- COL: Fake riders set up a sprint train while it should've been Minions, Azteca or WCC to do that.
Yes a bit, but it just means break wins unless there's teams with many riders
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
5x x5
2x x2
2x x2 |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 16:19
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 13:36
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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Awesome job by Brändle in the TT. Cool reports! I like the new system of NCs a lot!
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| Roman |
Posted on 12-05-2018 13:46
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4386
Joined: 29-05-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Did you also test it with adding fake teams but not adding fake riders to existing teams?
For the two races my team was in, CZE and COL, I saw two major problems:
- CZE: Moser couldn't dominate because the one man teams had support they shouldn't have. Konig and Cerny got protected throughout the race by teammates that shouldn't have been there.
- COL: Fake riders set up a sprint train while it should've been Minions, Azteca or WCC to do that.
Yes, tested it all multiple times. I believe that for champs with enough free team spaces it is not absolutely necessary to add fake riders to MG teams. But the problem is that it does not work across all the champs. Champs like Germany would still end up in a breakaway win, because PCM can't handle the AI without having multiple teams able to control the race and without actually having enough riders in the race alone. So the result is fake riders for all teams. It works everywhere, you can have the same startlist system for all the champs and we should eliminate boring early attack -> win scenario, that surely was the worst evil in NCs. From my testing breakaway wins should still happen sometimes in flat variant.
Maybe if flat variant is a little bit hilly and longer, then these fake riders would just drop from the main field. That could potentially at least partially solve the second thing. The first thing could be maybe partially solved quite similarly: more difficult profile. But on the other way it would likely result in even less suprise results than what we have this year so far.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 15:50
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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What about race length? Since riders now have full teams, wouldn't it make sense to make the stage longer than they have been? That way there's more attrition and the fake riders should fall off by the end more often, favoring strong teams. The short races seem like a holdover from the tiny NC's that won't exist much anymore.
Also, totally unrelated question, but I've always wondered why ladder DB's and the such always use all 55's as the minimum stat rather than all 50's if they're trying to make the riders useless. What is the point of that? I assume there's some AI purpose to it, but I have no idea.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| hillis91 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 17:58
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Team Leader
Posts: 5897
Joined: 30-11-2006
PCM$: 1500.00
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Yeiy. 3rd on the TT with Bookie 
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 12-05-2018 18:37
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Team Leader
Posts: 7406
Joined: 14-07-2015
PCM$: 599.00
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Kebede no good in Ethiopia 
But Ssabagwanya cool in Uganda 
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 12-05-2018 18:58
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Kim Le Court, the MG's first ever female NC medalist
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| Yellow Jersey |
Posted on 12-05-2018 19:03
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2809
Joined: 16-04-2013
PCM$: 900.00
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Now I'll just wait for Rwanda
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 12-05-2018 19:34
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 11819
Joined: 19-07-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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Well. Saber not winning ain't cool! Great sprint from Haddi though. Congrats, hoyle.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 12-05-2018 21:11
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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Nzeke with a dominant win the keep the Cameroonian jersey is very nice Shame Ssabagwanya was just a little too good on the mountain for Schleck to claim the Ugandan NC for a second year
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
5x x5
2x x2
2x x2 |
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 13-05-2018 01:24
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World Champion
Posts: 12986
Joined: 20-05-2009
PCM$: 530.00
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Both Japanese champions, just as I hoped.
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| viking90 |
Posted on 13-05-2018 08:32
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4032
Joined: 24-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Yeah! Nice one by KHJ  Super strong. |
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| tastasol |
Posted on 13-05-2018 08:44
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2889
Joined: 11-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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The battle of the Jensen's Congrats on the win, viking! Not much in it for us, but hoping for a podium now in the TT.
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| Gustavovskiy |
Posted on 13-05-2018 09:18
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Team Leader
Posts: 6036
Joined: 20-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Liking the new system. Also cool to see the pace of the main season continuing in the NCs. Thanks, guys and congrats to all champions so far!
Our sole rider to have been in action, Reda Aadel, with a nice first appearance in Morocco's race. It should be a nice omen for a possible national title in the future!
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
