Knockout's PCT Prediction
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knockout |
Posted on 23-10-2017 22:36
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Knockout's PCT Prediction 2017
Welcome to my PCT prediction. I applied the exact same method i used for my CT prediction for this prediction again. The thoughts behind the method are explained again in the second post for those that didnt read my CT prediction. Those who already read the CT prediction can skip straight to the numbers.
Based on a suggestion I ran 500 simulations this time to get better rounded numbers. |
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knockout |
Posted on 23-10-2017 22:37
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Having done previews in the past and enjoying reading previews of others there are two issues with most previews in my mind:
1. You don't see the quality gaps between teams. Many previews present only the final rank prediction. That is fine and i am already happy about anything but it only tells you a part of the story. Often predictors will have a couple of teams that look just about equally strong with close to no difference in between.
Whether they put a certain team at e.g. 3. or 7. can look like a rather big difference but the creator might see them as basically similar strong likely seperated by 50 or 100 points while the 2. and 3. team might be seperated by a huge gap of 200 points in the mind of the creator. Those gaps are very interesting to see imo but only few prediction format can show them. Jandal shows them a bit by grouping teams into different categories and Marco shows them with a difference in "some artificial Team-OVR" but I'm looking for a better visable gap indicator.
2. Many predictions expect teams to follow a certain team building guideline to get a good ranking predictions. Like: "You need one super good main leader, bonus points if it's a climber. You also need another at least sub-top leader in every terrain. All of them need at least one good lieutenant. etc.". I am a firm believer that quality is quality. You don't have to follow traditional thinking to make a good team. You can be succesful by simply having only many sub-top riders, you can focus on one or two terrains only and be succesful (see Gazelle, Strava, Evonik or 2014 Euskaltel). But the most important point is the quality you have in your team.
I've tried to implement these two thoughts into a formula. I feel like OVR is already a very good indicator for the quality of a rider and better than every improvised formula i could come up with so i came up with a formula that directly translates the overall of a rider into expected points. This formula comes straight from the 2016 final rankings of the division.
Adding the best 20 riders (=min number needed) of each team together leads to the pure-OVR based prediction. Every rider over that limit would reduce the RDs used of the better rider so I decided to ignore them to have a fair basis to treat the different teams. (it can be a nice help in some situation to have an additional specialized helper but in most cases it doesnt matter much whether #20 or #21 is the filler in the race)
This is the pure-OVR based prediction:
# | Team | Manager | xPoints | 1 | Orange Pro Cycling | CrueTrue | 3596 | 2 | Berg Cycles | fintas | 3451 | 3 | Meiji - JR East | valverde321 | 2954 | 4 | Isostar - Adriatic | Croatia14 | 2787 | 5 | Eritel - Sonatrach | SportingNonsense | 2741 | 6 | Newton Foundation | Mresuperstar | 2740 | 7 | Indosat Ooredoo - ANZ | Eden95 | 2728 | 8 | Podium Ambition | TheManxMissile | 2722 | 9 | Team UBS | Bushwackers | 2719 | 10 | Ferrero - Samruk | Spilak23 | 2718 | 11 | SPAR - Shimano - SCG | Bikex | 2659 | 12 | Grieg - Eftel | tastasol | 2616 | 13 | Fablok - Bank BGZ | sgdanny | 2490 | 14 | Minions | Marcovdw | 2441 | 15 | Novatek-Panarmenian.net | Selwink | 2418 | 16 | Kraftwerk Man Machine | DaveTwoBob | 2414 | 17 | Generali - EDF | matt17br | 2408 | 18 | MOL - OMV Petrom | jaxika | 2404 | 19 | Compal-Merida | Bjartne | 2313 | 20 | Carlsberg - Danske Bank | baseballlover312 | 2123 | 21 | Euskaltel | Luis Leon Sanchez | 2005 | 22 | Haute Route - Mavic | the_hoyle | 1881 | 23 | Lierse SK - Pizza Ullo PCTeam | Ollfardh | 1863 | 24 | Team Ticos Air Costa Rica | ste117 | 1847 | 25 | Valio - DeLaval | Atlantius | 1760 | 26 | Netia - Vónin | trekbmc | 1445 |
I then went through the list of riders and adjusted expected points of many riders based on how i rate their stats and how well they performed in 2016 (measured in points). That were especially downgrades for one dimensional climbers without acceleration and 76-78 sprinters and upgrades for versatile riders like Bille, low AVG TTers like Stannard and other underrated riders like Chavanne. This step was fully suspective and since i basically looked over every rider the influence of the original formula was widely reduced but is only used as a baseline for my grading of better riders and as a grade for lesser rider. The result is a list of expected points for each rider.
I think of gained points of a rider in a season as a statistical random variable that (if we played a season often enough) would be distributed randomly around the expectated points with a certain variance. For this preview I assumed a Gaussian distribution eventhough that's obviously not really the ideal case but it is simple and good enough to work for a model like this. The variance depends on the highest main stat so that a TTist or a climber will have a higher variance than a puncheur.
I then simulated 500 seasons based on these numbers to see how likely each team is to finish in a certain spot of the rankings. The results are seen in the matrix posted below. How to read the chart:
Place = The predicted finishing position as seen in all other predictions. This should be used to compare my method with other predictions for a fair comparison.
AVG = Average finishing position of 500 simulations
1 = Observed probability to finish 1st
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So e.g. Berg finished 17,2% of simulations as division winner and 19,2% as runner-up. Worst result in 500 simulations was a 15th place finish.
Please note: I haven't adjusted anything for the new calendar because i havent looked at the calendar too much and don't know yet how much the expected points should change. I also didnt looked at any announced race planning information to change the numbers. These numbers should simply be seen as an idea for expected finish, best case and worst case instead of any real realistic numbers.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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knockout |
Posted on 23-10-2017 22:38
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Final PCT Prediction 2017
- You can post now - |
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knockout |
Posted on 23-10-2017 22:41
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From the CT prediction thread :
DaveTwoBob wrote:
Would love to know how likely it is for Kraftwerk to finish in the top 10 of PCT <hint>
53,8 % according to my simulations
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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Ollfardh |
Posted on 23-10-2017 22:46
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Not sure how that works, but I seem to understand that there's a 61,6% chance we don't go down
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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baseballlover312 |
Posted on 23-10-2017 23:01
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If this holds any truth to the real season, I have about a 12-13% chance to relegate. I think it's more than that, but I'll take those odds!
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
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TheManxMissile |
Posted on 23-10-2017 23:08
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0.4% odds to win the division you say....
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hillis91 |
Posted on 23-10-2017 23:32
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SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-10-2017 00:05
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Great to see this for PCT too, with the probability tables. Will be the most interesting preview to come back to at the end of the season.
Very interesting to see that Berg's lower likelihood of finishing lower gives them a better average than Orange. Must have been an interesting simulation, the time Orange came 22nd!
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Bjartne |
Posted on 24-10-2017 00:33
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0,2% chance of reaching our top 15-goal is much better than impossible!
Thank you for this great prediction knockout! It must have taken quite some time |
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Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 00:00
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knockout |
Posted on 24-10-2017 01:02
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Ollfardh wrote:
Not sure how that works, but I seem to understand that there's a 61,6% chance we don't go down
That's all you need to know, right?
Full explanation is in the CT Prediction Thread / 2nd post of this thread but here is the short version:
step 1. Every rider is assigned an expected Points number.
Spoiler I designed a OVR->expected Points formula that generated me decent numbers already (results seen in the pure-OVR based simulation). I then adjusted most of those numbers to fit my impression and last season's scoring better.
step 2. Generate a random "Points gained in this simulation" number for every rider based on the expected points of this rider
step 3. Add the points of each team together and calculate the rank.
step 4. repeat step 2+3 500 times and add each result to a matrix listing how often the team finished on a certain position and the "Final PCT Prediction 2017" matrix simply shows the observed probability as relative numbers.
Spoiler Taking your team as example:
step 1:
Name | xPts (formula) | xPts(used for further calculation) | Kenneth Vanbilsen | 511 Pts | 511 Pts | Matteo Pelucchi | 140 Pts | 70 Pts | Stijn Joseph | 47 Pts | 75 Pts |
...
Only "xPts(used for further calculation)" is used after this point. The "xPts (formula)" only helps me to get an idea how many points the average rider of a certain OVR should score and is used for many domestiques. In this case you see that i used the formula value for Vanbilsen as i think that number fits well while i changed Pelucchis and Josephs expected points.
step 2:
Name | Points Simulation 1 | Points Simulation 2 | Kenneth Vanbilsen | 452 Pts | 633 Pts | Matteo Pelucchi | 77 Pts | 93 Pts | Stijn Joseph | 69 Pts | 73 Pts | ... | | step 3: | [table=100%] | Points Simulation 1 | Points Simulation 2 | Points Lierse | 1854 | 2051 | Rank Lierse | 23 | 23 |
step 4:
rank | ... | 22 | 23 | 24 | ... | Lierse | ... | 0 | 2 | 0 | ... |
Hope this explains the method i used better
bbl - I rated Juul-Jensen quite highly and also Nolf is one of the better cobblers. My pure subjective prediction would place you slightly lower as 18th or 19th but i definitely rate your team higher than those in the direct relegation zone. Whether it is 12 or 25 % in the end is hard to say and depends on the many variables that my prediction can only be a very rough indicator
hillis & tmm - GIFs? Surely you don't want to get lynched...
SN - Thanks. There are two things that give Orange and Grieg a higher variance than Berg in my model:
1. Leaders vs Depth. Berg has more riders on a rather similar level so if their best guy had a weak simulation lots of other riders could even it out.
2. Different Specializations of leaders. I assigned a higher variance for leaders specialised in the mountains or time trials than e.g. hills so espially Orange has automatically a higher variance with more points expected in the high-variance terrains.
This also explains the weird line for UPS and I'll have to look into the variances again next season should i repeat this work.
The Orange 22nd simulation was indeed super crazy. Sicard, Schreurs, Quintana and Kennaugh are the four leaders i rated the highest for them and all of them finished in the lowest 7% quantils of their point scales in this simulation:
Sicard: 5% quantil
Schreurs: 7% quantil
Quintana: 4% quantil
Kennaugh: 2% quantil
Bjartne - Thanks. It sure took me some time but i wanted to do this for quite some time already and i really enjoyed the process. A lot of the work (developing the idea, coming up with excel formulas, doing test runs with last seasons DB for PT to test whether this gives satisfying results, etc) was already done in Februar.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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DaveTwoBob |
Posted on 24-10-2017 02:00
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knockout wrote:
From the CT prediction thread :
DaveTwoBob wrote:
Would love to know how likely it is for Kraftwerk to finish in the top 10 of PCT <hint>
53,8 % according to my simulations
Wonderful analysis knockout and many thanks for taking the time to do this for PCT, really appreciated.
Pleasantly surprised we have such a good chance of making our top 10 goal, I might just start to believe
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Croatia14 |
Posted on 24-10-2017 06:51
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prediction is to 0.4% accurate
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matt17br |
Posted on 24-10-2017 14:10
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Awesome stuff. Lovely to see this method applied to the PCT as well. Around 7th is personally in the whereabouts of where I'd place myself, so I'm glad that your formula agrees with the quick assessment I posted a couple of weeks ago
On the other hand I find it really hard to imagine Orange not coming out on top after 500 simulations, which leads me to believe the formula(s) might have overrated some of Berg's riders somehow - Costa might score even less than 2016 because of the lack of suitable races, for instance.
I'm however happy to see a team like Netia being rewarded a bit more, when they have been consistently (imho) misinterpreted by other formulas. They're dead last when calculating the median of all the current predictions - which I strongly, strongly disagree with. I think far too many predictors have been relying on OVLs as their main metric, which clearly doesn't tell the whole story at all.
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Marcovdw |
Posted on 24-10-2017 14:52
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Damn you, now I have to edit the post in my HQ
There's a 0% chance we'll finish either first or last. We're most likely to finish tenth, which I still think is a bit too high. No statistical prediction is 100% correct even though I think yours is amongst the most sofisticated.
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Atlantius |
Posted on 24-10-2017 15:25
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Great to see this for PCT - thanks!
In many ways this is the preview I expected to be the most accurate, but I have to admit that I'm somewhat surprised to see pretty much all previews giving me a worse season that the last despite now having stronger leaders and not really losing significant depth. Very close from 15-21 though so it looks like we'll be in for an exiting/nervewrecking season potentially
Looks like we're likely to survive, but I console myself in the fact that I have more fun scenarios in my head for relegation than promotion anyway - and it does look pretty safe that I'll avoid promoting at least
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knockout |
Posted on 24-10-2017 15:25
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matt17br wrote:
Awesome stuff. Lovely to see this method applied to the PCT as well. Around 7th is personally in the whereabouts of where I'd place myself, so I'm glad that your formula agrees with the quick assessment I posted a couple of weeks ago
On the other hand I find it really hard to imagine Orange not coming out on top after 500 simulations, which leads me to believe the formula(s) might have overrated some of Berg's riders somehow - Costa might score even less than 2016 because of the lack of suitable races, for instance.
I'm however happy to see a team like Netia being rewarded a bit more, when they have been consistently (imho) misinterpreted by other formulas. They're dead last when calculating the median of all the current predictions - which I strongly, strongly disagree with. I think far too many predictors have been relying on OVLs as their main metric, which clearly doesn't tell the whole story at all.
Guess my explanation wasnt as good as i hoped. Personally, i'd say the core of my preview are the subjective ratings of every rider and not some formula.
My formulas were only the starting point for the expected points for each rider. (result of the formulas are seen in the pure-OVR based prediction). This had Netia as dead last and Orange on top as you saw in most other arithmetic predictions. I then made lots of adjustments to individual rider based on my subjective opinion. In total, i changed the expected points of 234 PCT riders (some only by 5%, some by a lot) so if i don't have Orange coming out on top that is because i don't rate their riders as high as others and not that a formula doesn't rate them.
Looking at my tables I dodged about half of the points by Arman Kamyshev because I don't think he is close to scoring 400 points as my formula suggests. Also Quintana got a major downgrade by me. So if Orange is better than i predicted then it's me who undervalues them instead of my formulas (or they simply had luck).
Berg is an interesting team. They are so high because of their depth and not because i rated a single rider so high. I have Costa on slightly less expected points than last season (2016: 570 PCT points). Same with Marquez, Nazaret, Vogt and Kupfernagel actually. But they have 9 riders that i have down to score 150+ points and that is what pushes them so high in the ranking.
Netia is a team where my formula failed just as badly as in most other formulas: Michał Kwiatkowski, Maxime Vantomme and Luis Leon Sanchez all have much higher scoring potential than the OVR suggests. Based on the formula (/OVR) they'd score only 500, 325 and 150 points which is obviously less than you should expect. By adjusting them they get a better prediction results which seems more fitting to me.
Croatia - Sure, I guess you would finish last in CT with your squad?
Dave - Thanks Cavendish and Flügel is a nice duo which should at least lift you into the upper table imo.
Marco - I would have waited until the first race is raced before posting prediction summaries - Who knows maybe another preview will be posted before the season starts for real
The average simulation has you as 12th or 13th which imo fits well
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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matt17br |
Posted on 24-10-2017 16:40
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Guess my explanation wasnt as good as i hoped. Personally, i'd say the core of my preview are the subjective ratings of every rider and not some formula.
It was good, it's my fault! I admittedly skimmed through part of the longer posts here, so a lot of the explanations definitely got lost in the process
Spoiler Berg is an interesting team. They are so high because of their depth and not because i rated a single rider so high. I have Costa on slightly less expected points than last season (2016: 570 PCT points). Same with Marquez, Nazaret, Vogt and Kupfernagel actually. But they have 9 riders that i have down to score 150+ points and that is what pushes them so high in the ranking.
I do agree that their top 8 riders - I'd take Paulinho out of that considering his 2016 - will most likely all score >150, but even then I just don't see how they could even battle it out with Orange.
I say this because to me even though Orange doesn't quite have Berg's depth past their top 5 scorers, their 3 huge scorers will definitely make up for that lack of depth. 2 riders that can both score 250/300 with Viennet and Kamyshev, Quintana that is a likely 350-ranger, and finally Kennaugh, Schreurs and Sicard that I can see in the 650 to 800 zone if not even more depending on how much PCM likes them.
Berg simply doesn't have riders capable of scoring as much as the latter 3 - though I can see Costa and Marquez around the 500 points mark and a sprinter/Nazaret in the 250-300 range, but that's not quite enough to win the division or top 2 if you ask me. Ultimately it shouldn't be forgotten that they still had to sell Fiedler and Haussler that combined for 600 points, after a 2016 where they finished 1.7k points away from the top and more than one thousand points from the top 3. They certainly improved their core, but I find it hard to believe they improved as much as some predict.
That being said this post ended up being longer than needed to just express a few concepts, my argument is useless when it's just based on some wizard guesses, and I'd say it's very likely that I'm completely wrong Still definitely found the preview extremely enjoyable!
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Spilak23 |
Posted on 24-10-2017 16:41
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This prediction gives a great Outlook for my team. Being in the clear top 5 is not something I expect. Also coming out on top 13% of the time is a whole lot. I guess Ignatiev was close to being topscorer in those simulations. Ignatiev is very hard to predict in generale but if you say you did not look at the calendar i think you overestimated him a bit as there are very little TT+hill races. Apart from Ignatiev and Kolesnikov all my other riders are quite predictable but your prediction clearly thinks high of them.
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knockout |
Posted on 24-10-2017 17:24
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Looking at the complete squad i wouldn't pick Berg in a 'classic subjective' preview that high either due to your reasons but i decided to stick to the idea of simply adding the parts together. Probably makes teams relying on depth a bit overrated in this preview as the second best riders on each terrain likely won't score as well as the first option due to limited races to split them up. That likely helps Berg, Ferrero and Isostar to be higher in the prediction than justified. That's a good point that I can improve for the future.
Spilak - Maybe clear top 5 is slightly too high but if we have the usual 2-3 disband promotions then I can well see you going up again. Ignatiev is indeed very hard to predict. I love his skill set and I remembered how well he did the last time he was in pct but I'm also not surewhether his mediocre 2016 season might be a hint that he isn't well suited to this pcm version. I assumed that he probably will be a top 10-20 individual rankings rider but I could be very off for him. I realize that he is extremely hard to plan though and that race selection has a huge impact on his season.
And yeah, I think very highly of all your riders as we seem to have a very similar idea what we value in them.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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