|
The Armstrong Case
|
| fcancellara |
Posted on 20-07-2012 01:12
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5194
Joined: 18-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
Just because people are talking about this case all over the forum.
To start off, I say Armstrong didn't dope.
The man in question has been tested often and often, whilst evidence never was to be found.
|
| |
|
|
| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 20-07-2012 01:16
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8542
Joined: 30-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Sarcasm?  Because...
1 - people are talking about this all over the forum?
2 - we've gone through this over and over and over.
3 - the statements in the post seem a little bit sarcastic
|
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 20-07-2012 01:21
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
Armstrong did dope. One teammate is one thing, but when almost all your teammates rat you out, and your putting up insane numbers and ferrari, etc, he's guilty.
However, I do not believe his titles should be taken away as, since most riders were doped, he was still the strongest rider of them (I know dope reacts differently for everyone, but there is no way to prove that he wasn't the strongest), and there isn't someone you can really give it too.
I also agree with lluuiiggii.
Edited by baseballlover312 on 20-07-2012 01:23
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| fcancellara |
Posted on 20-07-2012 01:24
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5194
Joined: 18-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
lluuiiggii wrote:
Sarcasm? Because...
1 - people are talking about this all over the forum?
2 - we've gone through this over and over and over.
3 - the statements in the post seem a little bit sarcastic
1.Okay, it's a bit exaggerated
2.Yups
3.Nah, I just wrote it,and then I noticed it was very formal, but I didn't feel the need to edit.
|
| |
|
|
| cosmic |
Posted on 20-07-2012 02:23
|
Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 28-06-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Considering all his main competitors were doped, it would be naive to think he wasn't, the way he demolished them at times. And there's a lot of other things that suggest it as well (which have been mentioned countless times before).
As for losing the Tour wins, I dunno. It seems a bit unfair to strip him of all 7 tour wins when others keep most of their wins after being busted for doping. Frankly I don't quite get the point of pursuing riders that won in the past anymore. Everyone knows that doping was extensive back in the day, so why spend all the money and effort to crucify individual athletes ? And how far back should they go ? Indurain ? Lemond ? Hinault ? All the way back to Merckx ? Who's to say those guys were clean ?
The time, effort and money should rather be focused towards improving the anti-doping work in the future. Something they can actually do something about. Digging up more ghosts from the past will probably do little more than drag cycling's reputation down further. |
| |
|
|
| fcancellara |
Posted on 20-07-2012 02:25
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5194
Joined: 18-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
cosmic wrote:
Considering all his main competitors were doped, it would be naive to think he wasn't, the way he demolished them at times. And there's a lot of other things that suggest it as well (which have been mentioned countless times before).
As for losing the Tour wins, I dunno. It seems a bit unfair to strip him of all 7 tour wins when others keep most of their wins after being busted for doping. Frankly I don't quite get the point of pursuing riders that won in the past anymore. Everyone knows that doping was extensive back in the day, so why spend all the money and effort to crucify individual athletes ? And how far back should they go ? Indurain ? Lemond ? Hinault ? All the way back to Merckx ? Who's to say those guys were clean ?
The time, effort and money should rather be focused towards improving the anti-doping work in the future. Something they can actually do something about. Digging up more ghosts from the past will probably do little more than drag cycling's reputation down further.
Zoetemelk and Merckx have been caught for doping a few times, it wasn't a big deal in these times.
|
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 20-07-2012 05:46
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
cosmic wrote:
Considering all his main competitors were doped, it would be naive to think he wasn't, the way he demolished them at times. And there's a lot of other things that suggest it as well (which have been mentioned countless times before).
As for losing the Tour wins, I dunno. It seems a bit unfair to strip him of all 7 tour wins when others keep most of their wins after being busted for doping. Frankly I don't quite get the point of pursuing riders that won in the past anymore. Everyone knows that doping was extensive back in the day, so why spend all the money and effort to crucify individual athletes ? And how far back should they go ? Indurain ? Lemond ? Hinault ? All the way back to Merckx ? Who's to say those guys were clean ?
The time, effort and money should rather be focused towards improving the anti-doping work in the future. Something they can actually do something about. Digging up more ghosts from the past will probably do little more than drag cycling's reputation down further. It's a feeling of Justice that leads (us) to catch cheaters sooner or later.
Plus those who won thanks to doping - I'm not denying their natural talent - earned and won loads of money, in an unfair way.
I really don't think we should let it go.
Indurain : known cheater.
LeMond : nobody ever saw him take anything he shouldn't have taken.
Hinault : did what most did in his time (probably played with corticoids, amphetamines, steroids, etc.). |
| |
|
|
| jseadog1 |
Posted on 20-07-2012 05:57
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 9595
Joined: 18-07-2010
PCM$: 13552.00
|
i think you guys know where i stand. .. i hope 
PCM.Daily Survivor Season 2 Fan Favorite Winner
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012
PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013
PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
|
| |
|
|
| boork |
Posted on 20-07-2012 06:14
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 336
Joined: 10-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
I would say it is 100% certain Armstrong doped it is just about having the evidence that holds up in court. Sadly the defense lawyers got a strong case against most of the evidence such as the vitnesses being dopers themself or of otherwise dupious nature. There is plenty of other evidence too but again it doesnt sound easy to find things that can hold up in a court. Copies of payments and such of course but i would imagine they where careful with that and that Armstrong and his crew been working hard to try and hide everything away. It would be very satisfying to see such a big cheater get busted for fraud and what not though.
About his titles i think it would be unrealistic for them to strip them of him. On a personal level i wouldnt want him to be able to call himself a 7 time tour de france winner anymore but i think they will keep his name in the record books. |
| |
|
|
| CrueTrue |
Posted on 20-07-2012 08:20
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Are we really going to discuss this again?
At least let it be about the USADA case then, as it's getting kinda boring to go through all the same arguments - again.
And speaking of the USADA case, they've responded to Armstrong's rather ridiculous case at the Texas court. And these 11 pages are probably the most entertaining lawyer stuff I've read for a while:
https://nyvelocity.com/files/u18/Exhib...art%29.pdf
And:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/100571623/G...67100-33-5 |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 06:26
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| Crommy |
Posted on 20-07-2012 10:17
|
World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
These documents are glorious
|
| |
|
|
| cosmic |
Posted on 20-07-2012 12:49
|
Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 28-06-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Aquarius wrote:
cosmic wrote:
Considering all his main competitors were doped, it would be naive to think he wasn't, the way he demolished them at times. And there's a lot of other things that suggest it as well (which have been mentioned countless times before).
As for losing the Tour wins, I dunno. It seems a bit unfair to strip him of all 7 tour wins when others keep most of their wins after being busted for doping. Frankly I don't quite get the point of pursuing riders that won in the past anymore. Everyone knows that doping was extensive back in the day, so why spend all the money and effort to crucify individual athletes ? And how far back should they go ? Indurain ? Lemond ? Hinault ? All the way back to Merckx ? Who's to say those guys were clean ?
The time, effort and money should rather be focused towards improving the anti-doping work in the future. Something they can actually do something about. Digging up more ghosts from the past will probably do little more than drag cycling's reputation down further. It's a feeling of Justice that leads (us) to catch cheaters sooner or later.
Plus those who won thanks to doping - I'm not denying their natural talent - earned and won loads of money, in an unfair way.
I really don't think we should let it go.
Indurain : known cheater.
LeMond : nobody ever saw him take anything he shouldn't have taken.
Hinault : did what most did in his time (probably played with corticoids, amphetamines, steroids, etc.).
A sense of justice, sure, but probably all in top 10 cheated in those days, so what will it actually accomplish ? The more cycling gets associated with doping in the press, the more it will hurt the sport's reputation and future. And there's not even any consistency in how the individuals are treated. I mean say you strip Armstrong of his 7 wins, how come Ullrich gets to keep his win from 97 ? It's just a complete farse.
Personally I couldn't care less what happens to Armstrong though. I never liked the guy. But I don't see how it will do the sport of cycling much good to keep digging up these old stories. |
| |
|
|
| johannes-w |
Posted on 20-07-2012 13:02
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 833
Joined: 24-04-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
fcancellara wrote:
evidence never was to be found
Yeah right... They never found anything on him
 Nice thread - it was about time someone finally started this conversation
Edited by johannes-w on 20-07-2012 13:02
|
| |
|
|
| Schleck96 |
Posted on 20-07-2012 13:06
|
Protected Rider
Posts: 1498
Joined: 10-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
baseballlover312 wrote:
Armstrong did dope. One teammate is one thing, but when almost all your teammates rat you out, and your putting up insane numbers and ferrari, etc, he's guilty.
However, I do not believe his titles should be taken away as, since most riders were doped, he was still the strongest rider of them (I know dope reacts differently for everyone, but there is no way to prove that he wasn't the strongest), and there isn't someone you can really give it too.
I also agree with lluuiiggii.
Dude wtf are you saying?? Other riders were punished and Lance is NOT different than everyone else. That is just stupid seriously. |
| |
|
|
| fcancellara |
Posted on 11-08-2012 02:02
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5194
Joined: 18-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
Judge challenges both sides in Lance Armstrong case
https://www.usatoday.com/sports/cyclin...56949006/1
|
| |
|
|
| 9-Ball |
Posted on 11-08-2012 02:05
|
Domestique
Posts: 477
Joined: 16-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Schleck96 wrote:
... Lance is NOT different than everyone else.
Oh? His name is Lance and he's from Texas.
I don't know if this topic needs no more absurdity or a giant heap of it.
It was eleven more than necessary.
Jacques Anquetil
|
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 11-08-2012 02:18
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
Schleck96 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Armstrong did dope. One teammate is one thing, but when almost all your teammates rat you out, and your putting up insane numbers and ferrari, etc, he's guilty.
However, I do not believe his titles should be taken away as, since most riders were doped, he was still the strongest rider of them (I know dope reacts differently for everyone, but there is no way to prove that he wasn't the strongest), and there isn't someone you can really give it too.
I also agree with lluuiiggii.
Dude wtf are you saying?? Other riders were punished and Lance is NOT different than everyone else. That is just stupid seriously.
Yes every single doper of the era has had everything stripped.
Dud wtf are you saying?
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| Schleck96 |
Posted on 11-08-2012 02:21
|
Protected Rider
Posts: 1498
Joined: 10-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
9-Ball wrote:
Schleck96 wrote:
... Lance is NOT different than everyone else.
Oh? His name is Lance and he's from Texas.
I don't know if this topic needs no more absurdity or a giant heap of it.
Dude just don't be an idiot. |
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 11-08-2012 02:44
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
Schleck96 wrote:
9-Ball wrote:
Schleck96 wrote:
... Lance is NOT different than everyone else.
Oh? His name is Lance and he's from Texas.
I don't know if this topic needs no more absurdity or a giant heap of it.
Dude just don't be an idiot.
I know you are but what am I?
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| 9-Ball |
Posted on 11-08-2012 05:01
|
Domestique
Posts: 477
Joined: 16-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Baseball, I believe he was calling me an idiot, not you. He might yet though. 
I believe he missed the point and is using 'dude' excessively, but each to his own.
Edited by 9-Ball on 11-08-2012 05:01
It was eleven more than necessary.
Jacques Anquetil
|
| |
|
