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Tour of the Czech Republic Discussion
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| fjhoekie |
Posted on 15-11-2016 13:46
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Grand Tour Specialist
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roturn wrote:So I`d like to here a clear yes or clear no from you guys.
Clear no from me then because:
-Tirreno had the same issue without a replay
-Profiles seem mountainous enough to at least give some influence (100% is still too much though, but the rest seems to be fine)
-Croatia put a ton of effort in, would honestly be a shame to lose that, and to possibly hurt his motivation for other races
-Croatia states the results actually look pretty okay-ish, even if the ratio of stage 2 would've been altered to say 50/50, we should honestly trust the reporter here
-I am biased
To prevent this in the future PCM16 has a (very broken) system without HI/MO. If PCM16 will be ignored, HI/MO ratios should be given in the stage profiles forum (either precise or in groups of 0-.33, .34-.67 and .76-1. The latter to still keep some tactical possibilities, mainly in the middle part, whilst keeping the extremes clear).
Also, my decision to send Cunego here has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I even thought MO would have a big impact, my strategy for this season has been to avoid any stage races with both a TT and mountains, and highlight Damiano's strenght in the hills, also because of the generally weaker competition.
Edited by fjhoekie on 15-11-2016 14:32
Manager of Team Popo4Ever p/b Morshynska in the PCM.Daily Man-Game |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 15-11-2016 13:54
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No, not just for my team, but also for Croatia who already put a lot of work into this.
I do think a bigger discussion is needed elsewhere.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 15-11-2016 14:08
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No because i like to say no even when nobody asks me at first place.
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| tastasol |
Posted on 15-11-2016 14:15
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Classics Specialist
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Yes from me. I might gain some points on it, I might have more success with stage hunting. The problem for me is the PCT teams that have sent riders like Di Maggio and McCarthy here, to find out that they have no chance in the GC.
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| beagle |
Posted on 15-11-2016 14:22
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Definitely no. Very well written above by fjhoekie.
Manager of Polar in Man-Game
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 15-11-2016 15:09
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I know I'm not present here but it would be a clear Yes from me to it being replayed.
- I think the precedent had been set by replaying the race last year.
- The HC Band Preview states it "stays a 5 day hill event" which would lead you to believe that Punchers would still be as dominant here as last season and that you can expect a similar result.
- The Race preview in the opening post states that it is an "exclusively hilly parcours" so having the mountain stat take preference on a stage that drastically, let alone on 2 of them would be wrong.
- The profile is exactly the same this year as it was last year so I would expect the same Mo/Hill ratio to be present unless otherwise stated (which it isn't).
- With the same profile as last year I would expect a similar result as last year where you can clearly see McCarthy and Di Maggio in the top 5, this would have effected my planning on who to send to the race if I was present this year.
- If we keep the mountain stat having as big an influence then it would be unfair on managers of those types of rider who shouldn't have any reason to believe that a similar result shouldn't be possible and it is a lot different points wise looking at a top 5 GC to maybe winning one of three stages that's aren't heavily mountain stat influenced.
I can understand why the reporter wouldn't want to replay it but if I was PCT again this year then I would have sent a Hill focussed squad and expected Di Maggio/ Anuar Aziz/ McCarthy to be up there in GC, battling for the GC win and be disappointed if they weren't.
Anyway just thought that seeing as there is a nice list of reason why it shouldn't be replayed someone should do the same thing for why it should be.
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| Eden95 |
Posted on 15-11-2016 15:24
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Been away for a few days and missed this so far. I agree with what SotD said:
SotD wrote:
It's really difficult to decide, and IMO it should be decided by either the race organizers or by someone not involved, as managers here either lost or won the race and clearly is going to argue in their own interests.
Most managers, regardless of how their teams have performed, are going to be biased whether they wish to say so or not (nothing wrong with that). I think that's a solid basis for all managers to not have the ability to decide what happens, it has to be someone outside of the race. I like the idea of discussing it here obviously, but of course a team that's under performing is going to be all for a replay - they'll feel misled and hard done by. Ukraine on the other hand for example with Cunego probably couldn't think of anything worse. For my team it doesn't bother me all too much, my team's been pretty hopeless all year and the lack of points won't keep us from promoting/winning the division like it possibly could others.
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 10:09
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| Roman |
Posted on 15-11-2016 16:15
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I say clear no and agree with points that made Croatia, fjhokie and beagle.
The situation like we have here already happened a few time this season. Things like this happened already in previous seasons. And not every time we had a re-run. Croatia invested a lot of time and effort into playing this race and creating reports and the last thing we need is to take away the motivation of reporters to run this game. Without amazing and active reporters, there would be no Man-Game.
However I definetely think we need to think better about this thing for the next season. The current system of only flat, hill or mountain symbol is not ideal if a stage can clearly have a diffent in-game rating and a hilly stage is in-fact a mountain stage or vice-versa. In my opinion all managers should have information about HIL/MO ration when planning the season. I think Excel calendar file could easily have all the needed information about every race - name of the race, in the column next to it terrain of the stage and in the next column HIL/MO ratio of that stage.
Everybody would know what we can exactly expect in a race, everybody could plan their season more perfectly and we would check if all races have the right ratio already before the season, so there would be no need for re-runs during already reported races at all.
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| Margh Norway |
Posted on 15-11-2016 18:36
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Sprinter
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As croatia said it wouldn't make sense to replay with some 50/50 like compromise, the results will indeed likely turn out quite similar.
Imo a rerun should only be considered if it's played 100% the same way as last season and from SN intended (well-explained by sammy's post).
And on a last note to the subject:
Situations like these really hurts my love for the game... regardless on how it's finally decided. I've adressed the issue in the last two post-seasons (when we were asked for comments and ideas), offered possible solutions and my help... without success.
Very last:
I really greatful and appreciate the fine work done by the man-game organizers and reporters!
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| roturn |
Posted on 16-11-2016 07:44
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Another update.
Still not 100% decided yet.
But the point by Margh is true. We had the very same problem last year and it was cleared by SN that it`s supposed to be a hilly stage race for balance reasons to have equal chances for all rider types in especially in HC bands.
So obviously a 100% mountain impact here is not what the HC balance needs.
That the same stages were used was in parts also caused by the fact that unfortunately SN is not around here at the moment and I did not have the fixed stages apparently.
But I found a possibility to change them now and could do the re-run myself as I don`t want to give Croatia extra work after he did a great job in first instance without causing the problem himself!
Yes I also agree with the other opinion in parts that the profiles should be more hilly then if the race is supposed to be a very hilly prone one.
Hence there definitely needs to be changes for the future. There clearly need to be less mountaineous profiles for some hilly races and also the problem with H/M ratios might need to be more public.
I am open for any ideas and will also make a thread in the next weeks with ideas I already had myself or were discussed in the past or with some managers. All those ideas will get a public discussion for sure then to find the best solution for all managers to avoid any further problems.
Right now I tend to allow a re-run here as the main idea was to have a puncheur race which was stated in last years discussion, in the HC band thread and also in the calendar.
Surely this is not ideal and I am not really fund to make that decision neither, but in the end it would be too much of a punishment for those puncheur teams that expected such race due to the mentioned reasons. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 16-11-2016 08:00
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In the end it's your decision to make Roturn, everyone will accept whatever you decide.
I would like to raise one more point though, not everyone followed last year's thread (I'm sure a lot of CT teams from last year didn't so they missed the entire discussion). I can only speak for myself here, but the profiles on stage 2 and 4 do look mountainous to me.
So if there are changes to the MO/Hill ratio, I would say a fair amount of MO is still needed on those stages, though obviously not the 100%. But going for a pure hill race while the only official info (=the profiles) says otherwise, would be a mistake in my opinion.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| fjhoekie |
Posted on 16-11-2016 08:06
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Posts: 4476
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I second Ollfardh. A replay would honestly be justified, eventhough I'm still against it, however it would certainly need some influence from the MO stat, just not 100%, or anything close to that. I was part in last year's race (somewhat, team was shit...), and completely forgot about the discussion back then.
Another point against a possible replay is something which has been said by Roman. Wrong HI/MO ratios have influenced many races which have not always been replayed. The influence may not always have been as clear as is the case here, but my feelings are to still to keep things as they are now, and make sure to have everything sorted for next season.
That said, I fully understand a replay, and I will respect any decision.
Manager of Team Popo4Ever p/b Morshynska in the PCM.Daily Man-Game |
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| roturn |
Posted on 16-11-2016 08:15
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I admit that Tirreno might have been a potential re-run as well. I wasn`t online those days and missed this in time. Not sure which other races really got impacted by such issue.
Though the difference to TA for example is that the profiles in TA are even more mountaineous as here. Example: The TA Stage 6 is looking like a TdF mountain stage while here it`s some semi mountain ones.
If it was like 0.50 or something, I never would consider it here to be honest as the profiles suggest this possibility. But a 1.00 just seems too wrong here imo.
I agree with you on the other points clearly and will take this into the decision!
In the end it`s just something that needs to be improved for next year, which could mean different route or 100% explained H/M ratio for this race and similar 50/50 cases. |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 16-11-2016 08:31
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Hence there definitely needs to be changes for the future. There clearly need to be less mountaineous profiles for some hilly races and also the problem with H/M ratios might need to be more public.
But not for all hilly stage races...it would be a dumb move to just put every puncheur into one line and only make the hill stat count...these races are the ones where minor puncheurs with other stats can shine, and that's what is needed to give depth a little advantage...for riders like Beltran a race like this is the only real opportunity in PCT to score big, and in my eyes it would be stupid to take that out...
pure puncheurs are in first line one-day racers and stage hunters, that has always been the case with these in real life...so why should we give these pure puncheurs even more pure opportunities (like South Africa f.e. already is) in stage races and dry out the lower tier puncheurs with interesting back-ups that become useless then...we have the same race going on so often in this PCT hilly races, in my eyes it's great to have some action that is unrelated to the "normal" names and "normal" scenarios on just waiting for the last hill to make a move...
that of course doesn't knock out the the talks by sporting nonsense - but then again it still is a race for the puncheurs - just not one for the pure puncheurs but for the ones with a wider skillset - And that should be the case anyway in my eyes and is part of the man-game's philosophy for me. It wasn't communicated that it's one for the pure ones but for puncheurs in general (and again, remember that with another game you have to expect other results).
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| tastasol |
Posted on 16-11-2016 11:04
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Classics Specialist
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Big difference between pure puncheurs and decent puncheurs with good MO stat. It's the latter group that are winning this race at the moment. I totally agree that secondary stats must have some influence, but here the secondary stats mean everything.
Also, disagree with you regarding your view on pure puncheurs. There's certainly one day races that are too hard for pure puncheurs, and of course there should be stage races that fit the more pure puncheurs. We have races for every kind of rider. We need different races. It would be dead boring if 70 per cent of the races was high mountains.
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 16-11-2016 11:29
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no, for the GC you need both a good hill stat and a good mountain stat...you can't win if neither of these is decent - which is what I think is the good thing about this
yep, and this is a different race - not mainly based on the mountain stat, but it has an influence (though not the highest)
I agree with your argumentation for the second point, but that's why I exactly like this race - it can only be won by a versatile rider (especially great as races for versatile riders often mean TTs and this is one of the spare races without one which is great to see)...
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 16-11-2016 11:32
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There's no problem with the mountain stat having an impact. The problem is that the mountain stat seemed to have more of an impact than the hill stat.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 16-11-2016 11:58
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To be honest, if you look at the profiles the RL "pure puncheurs" like Gilbert or Gerrans wouldn't stand a chance in this race. Stage wins sure, but no GC.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 16-11-2016 12:38
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But this is not real life. This is the MG, where the calendar is balanced to suit all types of riders, which is why in this race the hill stat should be the main factor.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 16-11-2016 12:49
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You're missing the point. MG equivalents of the riders I mentioned should do equaly bad on this profile, while they would do better in other races. I agree about the balance, but in this race, the GC should go to a puncheur who can survive a mountain as well.
I completely agree a puncheur centric stage race should be on the calendar, but if you look at the profiles, this is not it.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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