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Volta a Galicia Discussion thread
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 28-11-2024 00:03
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 24-02-2013 18:30
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Well, 75, his better than I thought. Anyway I have 5 (!) guys as good as him. Don't see why my guys just didn't take the front all race. If we are going to see full mass sprints on mountain stages, I can only hope the fastest guy (Moreno) takes the win sometimes.
5 minutes for the next group, just ridiculous 
And Arroyo in that group...
Edited by Spilak23 on 24-02-2013 19:18
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| Vien |
Posted on 24-02-2013 18:39
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Omg, what is this? Arroyo not riding.. okay, maybe he's injured, but why did he win yesterday then?At least let Ibarguren go for the young rider jersey with his nationality bonus, stupid AI. This is just insane.
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| DubbelDekker |
Posted on 24-02-2013 18:50
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Thank you, ember and jaxika. Weening being able to follow the climbers was a very welcome surprise. Finally a great result from my leader!
When the group with Marzano, Moreno, Menchov, Talabardon, Niemiec, Larsson, Rojas, Feillu and Dombrowski got almost a minute on the much weaker Weening group with a long way to go, I though my top 5 ambitions were over. But luckily they were able to come back. After that the favorites for the stage kept neutralizing each others attacks, allowing Weening to fly up the mountain in their slipstream. 
Kumazan, thanks for reporting; good job!
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| DubbelDekker |
Posted on 24-02-2013 19:02
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On the subject of no gaps:
I do agree that this season some mountain finishes have not been as selective as one might hope. But we should also take a good look at the circumstances on a per-race basis instead of demanding every stage classified as a mountain stage to be a battlefield with minutes of gaps.
In this particular case (stage 3 Galicia) it did surprise me. But looking back at it, maybe I should've seen it coming.
1) the stage is only 100km long.
2) the climbs before the final one are easy and in a part of the stage where the tempo is usually not very high, causing the peloton to start the final climb with pretty fresh legs.
3) the final climb is as long as Alpe d'Huez, but only 6% on average. Huez is 8% for example.
All these factors combined, it is not that strange that there are many riders able to climb it very fast without breaking. Also it wouldn't surprise me if the hill stat had some effect in this stage. That would be another thing making it harder for guys like Menchov, Moreno, Marzano to dominate.
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| ember |
Posted on 24-02-2013 19:06
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Well, then there is Punta Veleno. Incredibly steep and about 10 kilometers long. 40 riders on the same time. I think it's pretty safe to say the AI doesn't behave like most of us thought it would 
Though, that'll most likely give us many surprises this year, and those who have went with an "in-depth" team might score big on it, considering it might not pay off having one or two "big" leaders. It'll be very interesting to see what the results of these type of mountain and hilly stages/races will be, thinking of the amount of points different teams score.
Edited by ember on 24-02-2013 19:08
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| Christer |
Posted on 24-02-2013 19:07
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Surprised by the result that Dombrowski got. That's a decent race from him at this point in his career.
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| Ste117 |
Posted on 24-02-2013 19:24
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Happy with Niemiec's effort, just seemed to die before the end, when he followed Menchov I was getting excited about a possible stage win over the two were outfront already
MG Team manager Team Ticos Air Costa Rica
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 24-02-2013 19:24
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Ob the AI: i know it can be frustrating to be a victim of some stupid behaviour, especially the huge gaps between leading groups and peloton is annoying, as this can seriously destroy someone's race: i already imagine Rogers sitting in the pack and losing ten minutes, one day before a TT 
But in the end, we all have to take it as it is. Most of us will be hurt by those stages during the season. And so far, we can't complain about the winners ( well, you could be jealous at Rothaus or Sram or Hollister ...), it ain't a lottery in terms of the results.
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| DubbelDekker |
Posted on 24-02-2013 20:13
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ember wrote:
Well, then there is Punta Veleno. Incredibly steep and about 10 kilometers long. 40 riders on the same time. I think it's pretty safe to say the AI doesn't behave like most of us thought it would
That was indeed quite weird. Again, I don't deny the AI produces some strange mountain results this season. I just felt that in the specific case of stage 3 in Galicia, this kind of result was not THAT strange.
I haven't had time to read all race reports so far, but would it be accurate to say that the large groups in mountain stages 'problem' mostly seems to occur when there is a finale with only one serious climb?
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| fintas |
Posted on 24-02-2013 22:22
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regarding the time gaps in mountain stages I'm just saying:
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 25-02-2013 06:32
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kumazan wrote:
Alakagom wrote:
AI I am sure of it. The AI can be awesome at times. See Tour'D Algiere or 2nd stage of Trentino, but in others it's just bad.
I wouldn't say the stats affect it that much, there might be small differences possibly, but even in Daily DB there are such finishes with big groups on mountains, however much less, but I would actually think that would be due to career mode and many riders coming with different fitness to the races,
That's what I think as well. A pity, because when there were three groups in front of the peloton with ~5km to go it looked like it could be quite exciting, but then both chase groups merged, the peloton sat up, and it was clear that not much else would happen.
It is a same almost every mountain stage.
Two outsiders attack before the final climb, pack let them ride away. Later on the max slopes the favourites attack one by one and not going anywhere, chased down as nothing by much lesser climbers and domestiques, or other favourites, who attack later and are just caught again by the same they chased before. This also neutralize the former attack by outsiders.
Last part is decent top 10/15 climber attacking in last 1 or 2 kilometres left and gets a gap. He then either wins or fades and get caught on the line by 10-30 men pack. Stupid and boring... 
Edit: Not even mentioning that second group of climbers that did not make the split just sit up and watch, coming 5/10 minutes later, even when there are solid climbers present.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 25-02-2013 06:36
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 25-02-2013 06:35
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Spilak23 wrote:
I don't even know anyone named Rodaskov. This is just lame.
Well, he is 75 climber, not a random lame, but yeah, these not top notch climbers have unfortunately bigger chances to win mountain stages in pcm12 than favourites, because they preserve energy during the climb, while favourites attack again and again.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 25-02-2013 06:41
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tsmoha wrote:
Ob the AI: i know it can be frustrating to be a victim of some stupid behaviour, especially the huge gaps between leading groups and peloton is annoying, as this can seriously destroy someone's race: i already imagine Rogers sitting in the pack and losing ten minutes, one day before a TT
But in the end, we all have to take it as it is. Most of us will be hurt by those stages during the season. And so far, we can't complain about the winners ( well, you could be jealous at Rothaus or Sram or Hollister ...), it ain't a lottery in terms of the results.
Sorry Tsmoha, but it is lottery - Hoffman winning GC in South Africa, Devolder covering all the attacks in the brutal climb and sprinting away from 3-5 points better climbers to win a stage, half of Sram team finishing in top10 in Germany, because they were at the front in decisive hilly finish. It is all stupid and unreal. 
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 25-02-2013 06:42
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 25-02-2013 08:41
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Sorry Tsmoha, but it is lottery - Hoffman winning GC in South Africa, Devolder covering all the attacks in the brutal climb and sprinting away from 3-5 points better climbers to win a stage, half of Sram team finishing in top10 in Germany, because they were at the front in decisive hilly finish. It is all stupid and unreal.
Well, I do agree on most points you said before, mate. And of course there were some strange tactics, MO- and HILL-gameplay and stuff. It's indeed pretty annoying to see Cya adding AI-issues every year, but my point is: I guess (or hope) that this issues will be "well balanced" in terms of how often our teams will be hurt by them.
And I don't agree about the lottery. Here's a list of all Top-3 in this year's races, with "lottery-winners" in bold (please feel free to correct me, where I'm wrong.. and yes, it's only a list and doesn't tell the whole truth about how the AI worked in those races ...). Hoffman, yeah. Stupid AI, but a surprising winner could also happen irl, especially on home soil. Same goes for your mentioned Devolder-stage. I've seen unexpected stage-winners irl, too, with the favorites watching each other and giving a stage away. Unless a 74 MO-rider wins the TdF, I can live with those wins... what's most annoying, imo, is the "Auto Bus(sed)" peloton in mountain or tougher hilly-stages.
| Badaling | Cunego | Hagen | Ponzi | | Qatar | Boonen | Swift | Bewley | | Chrono Herbiers | Cancellara | Coppel | Rogers | | Tirreno | Cunego | Ponzi | Hagen | | Catalunya | Contador | Pluchkin | Schleck | | P-N | Trofimov | Schumacher | Phinney | | | | | | DUC | Greipel | Napolitano | Davis | | TDU | Dowsett | Efimkin | Gavazzi | | Tachira | Marquez | Pellizotti | Rodrigues | | ToSouth China | Vaitkus | Masuda | Sai-Udomsin | | San Luis | Zabriskie | Durasek | Paulinho | | ToSouth Africa | Hoffman | Flügel | Roche | | Bahir Dar | Vanspeybrouck | Sieberg | Maes | | Thuringen | Gerdemann | Geschke | Boom | | Trentino | Pozzovivo | Kiserlovski | Kristkiy | | | | | | San Cristobal | Rodriguez Oliver | Mehr-Wenige | Ilias | | Algerie | Moreno | Rodas | Marzano | | Kathmandu | Mehr-Wenige | Sami Sánchez | Weening | | Trofeo LP | Schinker | Lay | Hochmann | | Bretagnes | Olsson | Fonte | Furdi | | Emerald | Dall'Antonia | Sonnery | Demare | | Postojna | Kump | Mori | Scarponi | | Middle East | Rohregger | Martinez | Jiriakov | | Galicia | Weening | Carrara | Rudaskov |
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| Gustavovskiy |
Posted on 25-02-2013 09:04
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Fair point you have there tsmoha. I agree that surprise winners are part of the real world of cycling too, but I believe that that is happening a little too much this season. In the Man-Game you buy a rider based on his stats and estimate an overall value for him, then you expect that to be translated in results, so if you do the right choices in the transfer season and in race planning you should be good for a nice season.
But that doesn't happen if this process gets too randomized by the AI, and imo teams like Die Berg and Bintang have suffered a little bit too much already, and this hurts the competitive aspect of the game.
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 25-02-2013 09:20
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That's true. Just wanted to show, that at least the overall winners were okay in terms of randomized-issues. That never meant to be a ''Cyalogic is great''-argument
And as soon as i got hurt by a shitty mountain-stage, i may be frustrated as well but that's why i said, that we have to start taking things as they are. It's too early to say that this season will be lottery. No offense, Avin
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 25-02-2013 09:43
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I cant be offended Tsmoha, you are polite and you have your true points, also nice search to list all the podiums, it shows it is not so bad with podium results indeed.
But shit happens usually in the rest of top 10 and i was talking mainly about races where Metinvest participated of course, as i dont have so much info about other ones.
Thuringer - Sram/Rothaus domination, also with some lesser riders (sram with four in top 10, meanwhile many decent punchers missing top 10)
South Africa - We all know what happened with hilly AI there, with our Hoffman insane win
Trentino - Last two stages showed us what is wrong with mountain stages in full naked mode, same happened in Galicia. Osella and Devolder pawning Popovych,Taramae and others in stage3, despite all that attacks that should have killed them.
So in races i was part in, 3 of 5 were full of pretty strange things, that is why i brought it up.
And while i gained rather than lost because of it (Hoffman), it is very annoying, especially because reason that Gustavovskiy pointed out.
And of course we have to take it as it comes, but it is frustrating. Whille i am laughing at it a bit, as i was discussing shitty AI of PCM12 right from it coming out here on the site and i was told by many that it is awesome and improved.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 25-02-2013 09:44
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| ggDonovan |
Posted on 25-02-2013 10:51
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I'm pretty frustrated with the result of this race but I also understand that I can't speak too loud because next time I might get rewarded by this weird IA.
More than about Menchov is Nieve sitting in the peloton that pissed me off but well, I will have to live with it.
The worst is that I signed riders and planned the season according to some beliefs, feelings and knowledge of the game and now everything have been shattered... I don't blame the game directly but my lack of information in that moment. (I’ve got PCM11 and I think the IA is pretty good, so I don't know why it has changed)
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 25-02-2013 10:53
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Okay, we made our points and that's good. It's indeed annoying to see yet another AI-issue appearing from nowhere. But that's something a PCM-player used to learn, i guess i do agree that in general, the stat-wise best teams should get what they deserve. And i still have faith that this will happen.
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| Vien |
Posted on 25-02-2013 13:37
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Another problem is that, when riders attack from the pack and join a group in front of them, they won't relay and the peloton will come back really fast. Attacks almost only work when there are no groups in front of the bunch.
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