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2012 DB: Stat Discussions
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| roturn |
Posted on 29-05-2012 15:02
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xXMajesticoXxx wrote:
Thomas De gendt:
Mountain 77->75/76
I would never give De gendt 77 in mountain. Perhaps he was 3rd in giro but he did that with his fighting abilties. Before stage 20 he was 12th in the GC. Perhaps he had an extreamly good day and his luck was also a facotor that could position himself so good in the Gc again.
He was top10 after stage 17 and 8th before starting his solo ride on the 20th.
I think 75 would be too low as he would never get a chance of top5 GT in PCM. 77 mountain would be fine for me as he would still need good luck and some attacks in the mountains to reach a podium in the Giro. He won`t have any National bonus in one of the GT`s and would still suffer to get a top10 in Giro/Tour with 77mountain. So give him a good regeneration/fighting/time trial stat and he might be able to fight for top5-10 in a GT in PCM. |
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| CountArach |
Posted on 29-05-2012 15:42
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I'm of the opinion that De Gendt should be 76. He will improve over the course of the season so may be 77 or 78 by the Giro/Tour. Either way a very high recovery is necessary because he is one of the best time trialists after 3 hard weeks.
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| Ad Bot |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 29-05-2012 15:46
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I decided to give him 77 in MO. It was this or 76 and I chose 77 on the basis he would never achieve such a result in PCM with only 76. It's doubtful he will with 77 but it's just slightly more likely. He's TT was changed to 77 and Recovery to 78.
Edited by Alakagom on 29-05-2012 15:47
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| carmelobymelo |
Posted on 29-05-2012 15:58
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Alakagom wrote:
I decided to give him 77 in MO. It was this or 76 and I chose 77 on the basis he would never achieve such a result in PCM with only 76. It's doubtful he will with 77 but it's just slightly more likely. He's TT was changed to 77 and Recovery to 78.
With 78 REC his TT should stay at 75, he will still most likely win TT in 3rd week against opponents from this years' giro.
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 29-05-2012 15:59
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He deserves REC 79 to compensate 77 MO, IMO 
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| kissaha |
Posted on 29-05-2012 17:08
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Alakagom wrote:
I decided to give him 77 in MO. It was this or 76 and I chose 77 on the basis he would never achieve such a result in PCM with only 76. It's doubtful he will with 77 but it's just slightly more likely. He's TT was changed to 77 and Recovery to 78.
In my opinion 78 REC is too low. When you see the riders he is competing against have 80 REC, this means that De Gendts recovery is worse than his opponents. He showed both in the Tour last year (I know he took it easy the first 2 weeks, but he was injured/sick, and it is still hard to ride the Tour), and the Giro this year that his performances are much better in the end of the GTs. I propose 82/83 REC, maybe even higher. |
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| Vien |
Posted on 29-05-2012 17:11
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De Gendt was either ill or injured before the Giro, can't remember. He said he wanted to take it easy in the first two weeks to go for stage wins in the third one. In other words, in my opinion he was lucky that nothing happened in the first two weeks. |
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| xXMajesticoXxx |
Posted on 29-05-2012 17:42
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OK everybody i started with Boonen so i want to continue with OPQ 
some state changes would be need in those 2 riders.
Kwiatkowski and Vermote.
I follow those riders since some months they really did incredible time trials and prologues , looking to their ages.
Kwiatkowski managed top 3 tt in algarve top15 prologue in romandie giro prologue and last time trial of giro he also did a good job. Kwiatkowski also won the time trial of 3 tage van west vlaanderen
Kwiatkowski: 71 tt->73
73 prologue to 75
Vermote.
Vermote is also a young rider wiith a big futue . He won 3 days west-vlaanderen where he was 2nd in the time trial.
Top 10 giro d'italie stage 21.
Top 10 time trial of tour de romandie
Vermote is going to be a good time trial guy and will search his oppotunities in classics i think
on top of that i realized that vermote was a good helper on the mountains stages for cataldo i saw him helping cataldo all the time. he also finished good in some mountain stages.
Time trial: 64->72
prologue 64->74
Mountain :53->63
S.chavanel
Flat: 78->79 he was one of the only riders who could follow boonen on flat in paris roubaix and also did a high pace in the"Forest of D'aarenberg"
Time trial:73-77 Chavanel himself told that he really worked on his time trial abilities durign the winter. He won the time trial of 4 days of dünkirchen.
Cobble79->80 He is surely as good as flecha or ballan on the cobbles and managed several attakcs in ronde paris roubaix and dwars door vlanderen. i really think he should get those 80 points
@alagakom thanks i would like to help you from now in your states have mich experien abut pro tour teams and-> continetal teams
Also following some riders from near.
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 29-05-2012 19:40
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kissaha wrote:
I propose 82/83 REC, maybe even higher. Really?  82 would already make him the best REC rider in the DB, only together with Cav and Contador. And all he did was get good results in 2 stages in the Tour where he had taken it easy before (he was 75th in the overall before stage 19) and had a successful long attack in the Giro. I agree with increasing his recovery to more than 78, but either 79 or 80 at max.
xXMajesticoXxx wrote:
Boonen:
Sprint: 77->79 Disagree. G-W and E3 are both cobbled races, Boonen is much better on those compared to the other sprinters and certainly reached the finish much fresher then them. It doesn't make him a better sprinter than them. His PN stage win was in a group with few sprinters, plus several of these races from the early season (which also includes Qatar) involves a lot of shape as well, in which Boonen clearly had a good start this year (when the others are in shape, he won't be so good in sprints).
Accleration:76-79/78
As far as i know accleration is used for how a rider increases his spead or his attacks. Actually, acceleration has a misleading name in game. It controls how fast the red bar in PCM declines during an attack/sprint/huge effort, not the acceleration (which all riders have the same in game).
Cobble:82->83 Disagree again. Boonen is already, together with Cancellara, the best rider in cobbles in the DB (and with a 2 point gap, which is huge in a 30 pts matrix range = really on another level). Besides, you can't compare with a 2005 DB with different matrix (the matrix of the official release from PCM 5 at least is pretty high, Daily DB uses a "lower" one)
Endurance:81-82 Boonen already has 82 And with it is the best rider in the game, together again with Cancellara. Btw, endurance is the stat controlling the green bar in PCM, so his 50 kms solo move would be more related to resistance (which controls the yellow bar = 50 kms hurting) rather than endurance (which one could even argue Cancellara is better than Boonen (MSR for example). Btw, here you can find a file which has an explanation of the PCM stats: https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread....ost_500198
Cavendish MO: 60->57 Lastly, disagree with this. This would easily put Cav as the worst mountain climber from the best 18 sprinters in the DB, which he's not. It's true that he's usually riding against the time limit (and so are several other riders), but he can finish races, as shown in all GTs (and he was also one of the few sprinters finishing this year's Giro, which he also did 2 spots above R.Ferrari in the GC, who has 65 MO in the DB - not that it really matters, but for comparison effects).
Oh, and there's no "theory" of looking at results of the last 3 years, some "formula" or nothing like that. The stats are supposed to be the rider real stats at the moment. If Hesjedal wins the Giro, he might have become a better climber irl so he could do with an increase in his MO stat in the DB. And don't keep writing "please be realistic" several times and in Caps Lock. Obviously we try to do the most realistic stats as possible, but not everything is right (as shown by 20+ pages of posts in this thread) and it's impossible to please everybody.
Oh, and don't take this is as a bad criticism, but rather a constructive criticism. You're expressing your opinions about some riders, so am I. So please keep the posts coming, as I said not everything is right in the DB and these posts are really really useful in updating it and keeping it as real as possible  
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 29-05-2012 20:55
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When is the Final Day for Stats Discussion for PCM daily DB V2??? |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 29-05-2012 20:59
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The DB should be released any day now. I've done fair stats from Giro but new from today won't be implemented.
I got fair idea of the DB now and got used to it, so over the summer --> 26th June I will provide big shake up hopefully to all of the stats. You can still post your suggestions of course throughout and I will look at them and evaluate accordingly.
Edited by Alakagom on 29-05-2012 21:00
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 29-05-2012 21:00
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AiZaK wrote:
When is the Final Day for Stats Discussion for PCM daily DB V2???
There's no final day, even after the V2 you can keep discussing because they'll be taken into consideration for the next DB (PCM12 Exp Pack). As for the final V2, it could be up anytime
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| CountArach |
Posted on 30-05-2012 00:25
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Alakagom wrote:
The DB should be released any day now. I've done fair stats from Giro but new from today won't be implemented.
I got fair idea of the DB now and got used to it, so over the summer --> 26th June I will provide big shake up hopefully to all of the stats. You can still post your suggestions of course throughout and I will look at them and evaluate accordingly.
I'm planning to do a total re-write of the Belgian Continental and Pro Continental teams (you may have noticed a passion of mine ) in the next few weeks so if you want to start elsewhere that might be the best bet.
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| CountArach |
Posted on 30-05-2012 09:48
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Well I got an early start on the stat re-writing. Here is the link to what I propose should be the Wallonie Bruxelles stats. I've also included my reasoning for each rider next to it. Let me know what you think, and if you like it I'm happy to do it for each of the other Belgian teams (and hell, maybe some of the other ones too):
https://www.mediaf...249lyh2hrv
EDIT: If you go the top right of the screen there is a button that allows you to download it. Just in case anyone was having trouble.
I figure that the PCM12 database will need more accurate stats for Continental teams (given they finally have their own division), so it is good to get an early start.
Edited by CountArach on 30-05-2012 10:19
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 30-05-2012 12:50
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Looks good. Going check it later as now I am going to my Biology exam...
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| xXMajesticoXxx |
Posted on 30-05-2012 14:05
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Oh, and don't take this is as a bad criticism, but rather a constructive criticism. You're expressing your opinions about some riders, so am I. So please keep the posts coming, as I said not everything is right in the DB and these posts are really really useful in updating it and keeping it as real as possible
Hey first of all i'm always open for critisicm and have respect to all different opinions. I really would like to help further on.
xXMajesticoXxx wrote:
Boonen:
Sprint: 77->79 Disagree. G-W and E3 are both cobbled races, Boonen is much better on those compared to the other sprinters and certainly reached the finish much fresher then them. It doesn't make him a better sprinter than them. His PN stage win was in a group with few sprinters, plus several of these races from the early season (which also includes Qatar) involves a lot of shape as well, in which Boonen clearly had a good start this year (when the others are in shape, he won't be so good in sprints).
But i still disagree on 2 things what you explained.
First i'm still on my theorie with boonen improving in sprints.
The wins in qatar gent-wevelgem and e3 prijs weren'T luck or only good shapes i think. You say gent-wevelgem and e3 prijs have been won by him because of cobble stones.
You are totally wrong i think. Boonen used e3 prijs to see how other riders follow him on cobbles. He nearly used all his power on the taaienberg and paterberg. He followed every attack and also attacked himself. After such effort it was a fantastic result of him winning a sprint against a group with sprinters like sagan freire and boasson hagen.
In Gent Wevelgem nearly all sprinters have been their except cavendsih and greipel. We can't say gent-wevelgem is a full hard cobble stone stage. He won on a head on head sprint against sagan boasson hagen freire breschel etc...
In Paris Nice he won a sprint against rojas and degenkolb. Rojas has sprintin=79. Rojas also didn't show any good results this year.
Cavendish MO: 60->57 Lastly, disagree with this. This would easily put Cav as the worst mountain climber from the best 18 sprinters in the DB, which he's not. It's true that he's usually riding against the time limit (and so are several other riders), but he can finish races, as shown in all GTs (and he was also one of the few sprinters finishing this year's Giro, which he also did 2 spots above R.Ferrari in the GC, who has 65 MO in the DB - not that it really matters, but for comparison effects).
1st Cavendish finshed the giro because it was one of his aims. The other riders stopped giro, because they hadn't got reason to continue it, because their haveen'T been a sprint finish anymore(tdf there is always the champs elyssee stage)
Cav also went for the Point Classification which he lost at the end.
To finish the giro is also a bit about the regeneration between stages and not the mountain abilities. But i still think that cav should get sth betwenn 59 and 56/57.D |
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| roturn |
Posted on 30-05-2012 14:12
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But if you lower Cavendish`s sprint stat then he will nearly never finish any GT in PCM. That`s the problem. So you can`t lower him too much. 60 is still pretty low and he will be exhausted on harder stages and won`t be able to beat weaker sprinters but better puncheurs in a sprint then.
That would be very unrealistic as well when he never gets a chance on the point jersey due to the time limit.
And also the mountain stat is not that important actually. On most stages, where he would have a chance to win the mountain-hill ratio goes to 0, what means that the hill stat is the only important one and the mountain stat has zero influence.
Then he will still suffer against other sprinters like Degenkolb, Hushovd, Hagen, Sagan etc. as all of them have higher hill stats. |
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| Jakob8b |
Posted on 30-05-2012 16:16
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Hi guys!
Was just thinking about something, when I discovered that Bradley Wiggins is the bookmakers favourite for the GC in this years Tour. Obviously, he is favourite due to almost 100 kms of ITT, but it made me think, that maybe the mountain stat margin between the riders is to big? Would it not give more realistic results if the margin between tier1 mountain riders (Contador, Schleck, Evans) and tier2 mountain riders (Wiggins for example) were smaller? It would also make stuff like what De Gendt did more possible. Sorry about eventual typos, wrote this from my iPad. |
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 30-05-2012 17:52
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@xXMajesticoXxx: it's true about the sprints in the cobbled classics, the races weren't so though but he did have the advantage that they had cobbled sections. As for P-N, he only beat Rojas and Degenkolb, who aren't really 1st class sprinters (about the same level as Boonen). Rojas also has SP 78 in the latest release, and Degenkolb 76, while Boonen has 77, so it's pretty realistic. And even if Rojas has more, beating him in one single sprint doesn't mean he's better. Just because Guardini beat Cav in the Giro doesn't make him a better sprinter, and he shouldn't have 83 SP But Alakagom agrees with you and has upped Boonen's sprint to 78 (and also decreased Rojas sprint).
As for Cav, even if it's one of your aims it's not easy to finish the Giro. With 60, as Roturn said, he'll already suffer in the mountains and it won't be easy for him to finish the Giro in PCM. With 57 though he would have no chance (and, again, compared to the other sprinters he'd be by far the worse, which he isn't).
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| Miguel98 |
Posted on 01-06-2012 20:50
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Look, David Livramento is way underrated. He doesn't deserve 60 MO and 64 HIL. He deserves at least 70 MO and 68 HIL. Also, Ricardo Mestre should deserve a little more mountain and TT.
Edited by Miguel98 on 01-06-2012 20:52
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