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Correct use of stamina skill
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| kissaha |
Posted on 16-04-2012 18:35
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Am I the only one annoyed that the stamina skill isn't correctly used in any databases? As pointed out in this thread: https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread....d_id=21669 the only function it has is to determine how a rider performs in stages over 200 kms. But still in almost every database only the best riders have a high stamina stat, the better the rider, the higher stamina he gets.
Let's take Yukiya Arashiro as an example. He finished 9th in the 2010 WC RR, which was over 260 kms long, his stamina is 69. This makes it impossible to reproduce this result, even if he has 99 in fitness. Sacha Modolo is another example. He has finished 4th in MSR, and he's only got 66 in stamina.
I think this takes away some of the personalities of the riders(if they ever had any), in the sense that the best riders is always the best, no matter how long or short the stages are. Take EBH as an example, he has proven several times that he struggles with the longest races, he has 76 in stamina. Goss has also 76 in stamina, and he took his biggest ever win in the longest race in the calendar. If you give EBH 70 and Goss 82, we would see EBH struggle in MSR while doing good at Vattenfall, and Goss would outperform EBH in MSR and be almost equal to him in Vattenfall.
Any other thoughts on this issue? |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 22:30
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| tuturuto |
Posted on 17-04-2012 15:50
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completely agree |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 17-04-2012 15:54
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kissaha, EBH has performed well in few >200km races  MSR well where was Goss this year EBH had achilles heel injury last year and this year came 25th, while being unlucky as he was stuck at Poggio and couldn't move up. Looking at one race ( MSR ) and deciding stamina on it is wrong
Sacha Modolo never preformed well after that MSR if you notice I agree with Arashiro though
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| kumazan |
Posted on 17-04-2012 16:03
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Yup, Hagen's limit seems to be around the 230/240km mark, rather than at 200. And, most definitely, looking at one single race for stats is not a good idea.
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| kissaha |
Posted on 17-04-2012 16:33
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I agree that you shouldn't take just one race and base all the stats on it. The point of this thread was not to discuss which riders derserves what stats. My point was that I don't think the stamina stat is used correctly. Do you have any thoughts about that? |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 17-04-2012 16:40
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I don't agree completely, looking at them I think they all are fairly well used. And I didn't discuss which riders derserves what stats - I just used the riders you made in points. They are odd ones out and I agree some are odd, I agree and I will try to eliminate them I took over from previous stats - maker so I will try to fix such things,but most stamina stats are good.
Edited by Alakagom on 17-04-2012 16:41
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 17-04-2012 16:47
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Alakagom wrote:
MSR well where was Goss this year
Goss wasn't in good shape this year (not compared to last year), but he's still managed a 15th. (and going a bit off topic) He was 2nd in last year's WC, I agree he should have more stamina.
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| kissaha |
Posted on 17-04-2012 17:38
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lluuiiggii wrote:
Alakagom wrote:
MSR well where was Goss this year
Goss wasn't in good shape this year (not compared to last year), but he's still managed a 15th. (and going a bit off topic) He was 2nd in last year's WC, I agree he should have more stamina.
And higher doesn't mean 77 in my opinion. His 3 best results (1st MSR, 2nd WC RR and 1st GP Ouest France) are all 250 kms or longer. This means Goss handles long races exceptionally well, and therefore deserves a very high stamina stat. If you give him 78, he wont stand out from the rest of the sprinters, and therefore it won't have any effect. On the other hand if you give him 82 he will be better than most riders, and you'll see him get better results the longer the stages are.
Let me remind you again, stamina only determines how well a rider handles long stages, and therefore Goss won't be any better if the stage is just 150 kms. |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 17-04-2012 17:55
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kissaha wrote:
lluuiiggii wrote:
Alakagom wrote:
MSR well where was Goss this year
Goss wasn't in good shape this year (not compared to last year), but he's still managed a 15th. (and going a bit off topic) He was 2nd in last year's WC, I agree he should have more stamina.
And higher doesn't mean 77 in my opinion. His 3 best results (1st MSR, 2nd WC RR and 1st GP Ouest France) are all 250 kms or longer. This means Goss handles long races exceptionally well, and therefore deserves a very high stamina stat. If you give him 78, he wont stand out from the rest of the sprinters, and therefore it won't have any effect. On the other hand if you give him 82 he will be better than most riders, and you'll see him get better results the longer the stages are.
Let me remind you again, stamina only determines how well a rider handles long stages, and therefore Goss won't be any better if the stage is just 150 kms.
I know that quite well, there's advised Matrix we can follow
It seems ironic that you posted that about Goss, posting before 'The point of this thread was not to discuss which riders deserves what stats.' But I know what you mean. Altough Goss STA can be upper a little bit as well
As I said except few expectations, most are correct.
Edited by Alakagom on 17-04-2012 17:58
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| kissaha |
Posted on 17-04-2012 18:05
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The point is still not which riders deserves what stats, but that the way the stamina stat in general is used wrong. And to back my arguments I have to use examples from the stats you have given, and then say why I think they are wrong.
Why can't the stamina stat be given like the downhill stat is, even if the rider has an average of 64, he can still have a DH stat of 85. If a mediocre rider (72 AVG) only excels in races longer than 240 kms, why can't he be given 80 in stamina? |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 17-04-2012 18:24
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Are you sure that the game even can handle that. I mean the DH stat does not work like other stats. For example, the max. value of a stat is somewhat related to the potential of a rider, as far as I know. So you could maybe set the Stamina for old riders, but it would not work well for young riders and might be totally off for scouted riders. |
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| kissaha |
Posted on 17-04-2012 18:29
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Not quite sure how the game can't handle this? As far as I know you can give a rider 85 at everything and 1 in potential and it would still work. Am I missing your point here? |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 17-04-2012 18:44
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I was talking about riders which are not at the peak of their development.
Riders normally evolve during the career and if the game cannot handle it correctly, you would see strange results after one or more years. I would not want to play such a DB, therefore I was asking if the game can handle high stamina values for mediocre riders well. |
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| kissaha |
Posted on 17-04-2012 18:47
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Lachi wrote:
I was talking about riders which are not at the peak of their development.
Riders normally evolve during the career and if the game cannot handle it correctly, you would see strange results after one or more years. I would not want to play such a DB, therefore I was asking if the game can handle high stamina values for mediocre riders well.
To classify if a riders development is wrong, I would have to know what is the right development.
Edited by kissaha on 17-04-2012 18:47
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-04-2012 19:12
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kissaha wrote:
The point is still not which riders deserves what stats, but that the way the stamina stat in general is used wrong. And to back my arguments I have to use examples from the stats you have given, and then say why I think they are wrong.
First, I don't believe this thread belongs in this category even if the problem is also apparent in the PCM.daily DB (which I'm sure it is to some extent).
Second, the stamina thing was written into the matrix guide, that the stat maker (in this case Alakagom) follows, when the finding was published. Alakagom is still working his way through all the wrong stats that previous stat makers (e.g. me) have given, so have some patience, and we'll see whether it gets any better in the next releases  |
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| kissaha |
Posted on 18-04-2012 19:29
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You're right, it probably doesn't belong in this category.
Is it possible to publish the matrix-guide? Would be a very interesting read. |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 18-04-2012 19:34
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Sure. It's been published before in its original form, but as I said, some updates have been made to it along the way. This is how it looks for the time being.
It was originally written by Ruben, by the way, so most credit goes to him.
Edited by CrueTrue on 18-04-2012 19:35
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| Lachi |
Posted on 19-04-2012 16:53
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kissaha wrote:
Lachi wrote:
I was talking about riders which are not at the peak of their development.
Riders normally evolve during the career and if the game cannot handle it correctly, you would see strange results after one or more years. I would not want to play such a DB, therefore I was asking if the game can handle high stamina values for mediocre riders well.
To classify if a riders development is wrong, I would have to know what is the right development. If the file attached by CrueTrue did not answer my worries, then read this: https://pcmdaily.c...owstart=24 (Setting skills above the natural limit given by the potential would make that rider become even better in the future.) |
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| kissaha |
Posted on 23-04-2012 09:26
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I am not able to completely reproduce this issue. I gave Knees 83, and Stannard and Dowsett 80 in stamina. I varied their potential between 3 and 5 in different careers. Knees never got any room for stamina improvement, while Stannard and Dowsett varied between 0 stars and 2 stars in stamina potential. Their potential for improvement in other stats are about zero,
And as Ruben states in the thread you are linking to, it is just to limit their potential in the given stat. So if Stannard deserves 80 in stamina, just limit his stamina potential to 80, and the problem is solved.
EDIT: On the other hand, the game handles giving good riders with high potential low stamina stats well. EBH (71) and Uran (73) both varied between 2 and 4 stars in stamina potential.
Edited by kissaha on 23-04-2012 09:35
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| kissaha |
Posted on 13-05-2012 21:44
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Alakagom wrote:
Sacha Modolo never preformed well after that MSR if you notice
Just checked up on this, do you call this nothing?
2011: https://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/...;current=0
2012: https://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/...;current=0
Edited by kissaha on 13-05-2012 21:46
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