|
Milan San Remo 2012
|
| sam1196 |
Posted on 18-03-2012 13:05
|
Protected Rider
Posts: 1493
Joined: 11-10-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
2nd is better than no podium at all, so i think that's why Fabian didn't stop riding.
VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO
|
| |
|
|
| kumazan |
Posted on 18-03-2012 13:12
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 02-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Yes, but first is better than second, yet he didn't even try something other than to lead out Gerrans for 6 km. I wonder if he realises that there are ways to win races other than doing on attack and TTing to the finish.
|
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 18-03-2012 13:16
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
The pack was right behind them. If he stopped riding and played cat and mouse, they would have been caught. As far as Cancellara knew, Gerrans wouldn't pull because he had Goss. Gerrans took one pull, and the pack gained 4 seconds. Little did he know that Goss was struggling on the back and finished 15th. If Cancellara had stopped, The pack might have caught them, and he would have finished barely in the top ten. He took a risk. We don't know if Gerrans would have taken a harder pull if he was in constant communication with Goss. But Cancellara made a descision, and he got second. It's a failurew of what he wanted, but he was never gonna win a sprint with Gerrans in the group, and him pulling for 7 km.
Edited by baseballlover312 on 18-03-2012 13:16
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 01:32
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| cactus-jack |
Posted on 18-03-2012 13:21
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3936
Joined: 31-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Great race, allthough Sky took "fuck-up-ery" to a whole new level by deciding to try to help a Cav who didn't feel good instead of EBH.
It's going to be very interesting to see how GreenEdge will fair the rest of the season. BMC so far seems to have a case of the "Man City-syndrome": the best riders in the world, millions in the bank, but no results, |
| |
|
|
| Eden95 |
Posted on 18-03-2012 16:54
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4505
Joined: 05-10-2010
PCM$: 900.00
|
The reaction in the Greenedge team car and bus, possibly better than Saxo bank's last year at RVV?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHAKie...OOnsAJKlk=
Edited by Eden95 on 18-03-2012 16:54
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 19-03-2012 09:50
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
sam1196 wrote:
If Nibali hadn't attacked on the Poggio, there certainly would be an attack of Cancellara on the last 6kms because he really had good legs. And if that happened everybody would look to Sagan and Nibali to close the gap.
So i think what Nibali did is kind of protectiong Sagan behind him.
Maybe yes, maybe no, it is really hard to tell as we dont know usually what might happen. But i think Liquigas starts to have a problem with this dual leadership in some races. Sagan did terrific job for Nibali at T-A (but also rode away from him the day before in Chieti) so i expected Nibali to do the same at MSR. I mean that was the team tactics to set Nibali attack at Poggio but why? He would never ever beat Cance or Gerrans in the sprint, instead he could have worked his ass off for Sagan in the head of the peloton. They would have podium finish for sure imo and maybe even 2nd or 1st. I dont blame Nibali, but the team tactics...
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 19-03-2012 09:51
|
| |
|
|
| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 19-03-2012 10:02
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
ruben wrote:
I wish Sagan would've won. Nibali initiated the attack so that was in the end the undoing of Sagans win. I think.
Cancellara was a beast but rode stupid  he basically rode that loser wheelsucker Gerrans to a win.
I like to refer to Gerrans as the Australian Valverde. He just sits there, never does anything and waits for the last 200m in an uphill race to win. Or in this case following the best and then winning the sprint on the flat.
Valverde all over again.
1. What did Cancellara wrong?..he would have been out of podium when he have waited Freire-Sagan group.
2. What did Gerrans wrong? He followed a super strong and correct atack..and took a sprint win. He must be strong to follow Nibbles and Cancellara. |
| |
|
|
| tyriion |
Posted on 19-03-2012 16:26
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1510
Joined: 29-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
agree with Guido. Cycling is a team sport. If Cancellara wants to win a classic like this he might need a stronger team in these times. Because there's always some who can fall back on a strong sprinter. Both Nibali and Gerrans were backed by a sprinter (Sagan and Goss, even though he got dropped on Poggio) so they could afford to 'sit' in the wheel. Everyone knows what Cancellara can do so everyone will profit from him in this situation.
Check out my ManGame team here
|
| |
|
|
| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 19-03-2012 16:34
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8542
Joined: 30-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
tyriion wrote:
agree with Guido. Cycling is a team sport. If Cancellara wants to win a classic like this he might need a stronger team in these times. Because there's always some who can fall back on a strong sprinter. Both Nibali and Gerrans were backed by a sprinter (Sagan and Goss, even though he got dropped on Poggio) so they could afford to 'sit' in the wheel. Everyone knows what Cancellara can do so everyone will profit from him in this situation.
If one of those 3 was to do all the work because he had no sprinter to back up, it would be Gerrans, since Cancellara 'had' Bennati, who wasn't dropped on the Poggio and eventually finished 10th (quite ahead of Goss).
|
| |
|
|
| sam1196 |
Posted on 19-03-2012 18:32
|
Protected Rider
Posts: 1493
Joined: 11-10-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
If Nibali hadn't attacked on the Poggio, there certainly would be an attack of Cancellara on the last 6kms because he really had good legs. And if that happened everybody would look to Sagan and Nibali to close the gap.
So i think what Nibali did is kind of protectiong Sagan behind him.
Maybe yes, maybe no, it is really hard to tell as we dont know usually what might happen. But i think Liquigas starts to have a problem with this dual leadership in some races. Sagan did terrific job for Nibali at T-A (but also rode away from him the day before in Chieti) so i expected Nibali to do the same at MSR. I mean that was the team tactics to set Nibali attack at Poggio but why? He would never ever beat Cance or Gerrans in the sprint, instead he could have worked his ass off for Sagan in the head of the peloton. They would have podium finish for sure imo and maybe even 2nd or 1st. I dont blame Nibali, but the team tactics...
Nibali also couldn't know that he was going to get Gerrans and Cancellara on hiw wheel.
VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO
|
| |
|
|
| baggieboys32 |
Posted on 19-03-2012 18:38
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1981
Joined: 01-10-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
sam1196 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
If Nibali hadn't attacked on the Poggio, there certainly would be an attack of Cancellara on the last 6kms because he really had good legs. And if that happened everybody would look to Sagan and Nibali to close the gap.
So i think what Nibali did is kind of protectiong Sagan behind him.
Maybe yes, maybe no, it is really hard to tell as we dont know usually what might happen. But i think Liquigas starts to have a problem with this dual leadership in some races. Sagan did terrific job for Nibali at T-A (but also rode away from him the day before in Chieti) so i expected Nibali to do the same at MSR. I mean that was the team tactics to set Nibali attack at Poggio but why? He would never ever beat Cance or Gerrans in the sprint, instead he could have worked his ass off for Sagan in the head of the peloton. They would have podium finish for sure imo and maybe even 2nd or 1st. I dont blame Nibali, but the team tactics...
Nibali also couldn't know that he was going to get Gerrans and Cancellara on hiw wheel.
Making an attack on the poggio, with Cancellara in the same group, he must of known he'd be followed, It seems more likely in my opinion, they weren't expecting Gerrans to join them, and with only Cancellara working out front, Liquigas probably figured they'd have a better chance of stopping him from winning overall, hence they attacked with Nibali, expecting other teams to work, and bring back the riders out in front for the sprint finish with Sagan.
|
| |
|
|
| kumazan |
Posted on 19-03-2012 19:04
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 02-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
If Nibali hadn't attacked on the Poggio, there certainly would be an attack of Cancellara on the last 6kms because he really had good legs. And if that happened everybody would look to Sagan and Nibali to close the gap.
So i think what Nibali did is kind of protectiong Sagan behind him.
Maybe yes, maybe no, it is really hard to tell as we dont know usually what might happen. But i think Liquigas starts to have a problem with this dual leadership in some races. Sagan did terrific job for Nibali at T-A (but also rode away from him the day before in Chieti) so i expected Nibali to do the same at MSR. I mean that was the team tactics to set Nibali attack at Poggio but why? He would never ever beat Cance or Gerrans in the sprint, instead he could have worked his ass off for Sagan in the head of the peloton. They would have podium finish for sure imo and maybe even 2nd or 1st. I dont blame Nibali, but the team tactics...
The problem was the tactic, indeed, but not so much the attack on the Poggio, rather the reaction (or the lack of) after the trio got a gap. Once Cancellara and Gerrans joined Nibali in front, there was no way he was going to win, so doing nothing in the chase under the excuse that they had someone in front was absolutely wrong. Even Sagan could have closed the gap by himself in the descent.
Still, if Sagan was so strong he should have followed Cancellara. At this point they all know how Cancellara's only tactic works.
Edited by kumazan on 19-03-2012 19:05
|
| |
|
|
| Lachi |
Posted on 19-03-2012 19:32
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
For me there was only one good team tactic, the one from GreenEdge. They told Gerrans to stay cool and have Cancellara do all the work.
Cancellara does not care about team tactics anyway because he just wants to win any classic race.
All other teams sucked because it is plain stupid to allow Cancellara creating a gap when there is only a downhill section followed by a short straight with tailwind.
I think Cancellara got the best out it when you consider the race situation at the foot of the poggio. Maybe he should have attacked earlier but if they would have caught him before the top, then the race would have ended in a sprint and he never would have ended on the podium looking at the top sprinters in the front group.
Edited by Lachi on 19-03-2012 19:33
|
| |
|
|
| kumazan |
Posted on 19-03-2012 19:50
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 02-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Lachi wrote:
For me there was only one good team tactic, the one from GreenEdge. They told Gerrans to stay cool and have Cancellara do all the work.
This.
Lachi wrote:
I think Cancellara got the best out it when you consider the race situation at the foot of the poggio. Maybe he should have attacked earlier but if they would have caught him before the top, then the race would have ended in a sprint and he never would have ended on the podium looking at the top sprinters in the front group.
Not really. Getting to the foot of the Poggio with a ~10" gap, being the strongest of the break and not winning can't be the best out of it. I think he should have tried something after the Poggio the drop Nibbles and especially Gerrans. Of course, it wouldn't guarantee a victory, but to keep pushing without any help pretty much ruined his options.
|
| |
|
|
| sam1196 |
Posted on 19-03-2012 19:53
|
Protected Rider
Posts: 1493
Joined: 11-10-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
baggieboys32 wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
If Nibali hadn't attacked on the Poggio, there certainly would be an attack of Cancellara on the last 6kms because he really had good legs. And if that happened everybody would look to Sagan and Nibali to close the gap.
So i think what Nibali did is kind of protectiong Sagan behind him.
Maybe yes, maybe no, it is really hard to tell as we dont know usually what might happen. But i think Liquigas starts to have a problem with this dual leadership in some races. Sagan did terrific job for Nibali at T-A (but also rode away from him the day before in Chieti) so i expected Nibali to do the same at MSR. I mean that was the team tactics to set Nibali attack at Poggio but why? He would never ever beat Cance or Gerrans in the sprint, instead he could have worked his ass off for Sagan in the head of the peloton. They would have podium finish for sure imo and maybe even 2nd or 1st. I dont blame Nibali, but the team tactics...
Nibali also couldn't know that he was going to get Gerrans and Cancellara on hiw wheel.
Making an attack on the poggio, with Cancellara in the same group, he must of known he'd be followed, It seems more likely in my opinion, they weren't expecting Gerrans to join them, and with only Cancellara working out front, Liquigas probably figured they'd have a better chance of stopping him from winning overall, hence they attacked with Nibali, expecting other teams to work, and bring back the riders out in front for the sprint finish with Sagan.
Do you really think that Nibali was thinking about Cancellara when he planned his attack? I don't think so, i think he was thinking about going solo dropping like an eagle down the Poggio and loose as less time as possible on the flat. Once he had Gerrans and Cancellara with him i think Nibali started doubting his chances... So holding on with everything he had left. Letting himself drop to Sagan group wasn't an option. So he was forced to hang in there with Gerrans and Cancellara.
The only thing he could have done better in my eyes was once that he realised that Gerrans was smoothly countering his attack not going 100% anymore. Knowing that if Gerrans could counter, maybe a few other could also.
Regarding the sprint of Sagan, why wasn't Sagan on Cancellara's wheel than? That would have been the best tactic for Liquigas i thinkl.
Of course GreenEdge tactic is considered the best afterwards, they have the winner. I think Gerrans himself is smart enough to know that taking over from Fabian woul mean quite a suicide, spoiling he's chances for 1st place and risking a late attack from Nibali.
Edited by sam1196 on 19-03-2012 19:55
VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-03-2012 05:52
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
kumazan wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
If Nibali hadn't attacked on the Poggio, there certainly would be an attack of Cancellara on the last 6kms because he really had good legs. And if that happened everybody would look to Sagan and Nibali to close the gap.
So i think what Nibali did is kind of protectiong Sagan behind him.
Maybe yes, maybe no, it is really hard to tell as we dont know usually what might happen. But i think Liquigas starts to have a problem with this dual leadership in some races. Sagan did terrific job for Nibali at T-A (but also rode away from him the day before in Chieti) so i expected Nibali to do the same at MSR. I mean that was the team tactics to set Nibali attack at Poggio but why? He would never ever beat Cance or Gerrans in the sprint, instead he could have worked his ass off for Sagan in the head of the peloton. They would have podium finish for sure imo and maybe even 2nd or 1st. I dont blame Nibali, but the team tactics...
The problem was the tactic, indeed, but not so much the attack on the Poggio, rather the reaction (or the lack of) after the trio got a gap. Once Cancellara and Gerrans joined Nibali in front, there was no way he was going to win, so doing nothing in the chase under the excuse that they had someone in front was absolutely wrong. Even Sagan could have closed the gap by himself in the descent.
Still, if Sagan was so strong he should have followed Cancellara. At this point they all know how Cancellara's only tactic works.
It is hard to tell, if Sagan followed Cance he would burn himself probably in a minute,as this race is maybe too extreme in lenght for his young age. I think he relied on the other teams to do the work (Katusha was doing it, but not fast enough) or waiting for Nibali from winniÃng with downhill attack (but as soon as Cance joined them it was clear Nibali has not a chance).
What i think is that Nibali didnt have to attack and wait for the sprint but italian win would be more for Liquigas so he did it 
Overall this is still great result for the team and 22years old at the longest classic, if Sagan will not win in the future i will eat my hat 
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-03-2012 05:55
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
sam1196 wrote:
Do you really think that Nibali was thinking about Cancellara when he planned his attack? I don't think so, i think he was thinking about going solo dropping like an eagle down the Poggio and loose as less time as possible on the flat.
To be fair you cant attack in a spring classic and dont think about Cancellara, as he is doing the same move every classic and usually someone follow him and win from his slipstream 
|
| |
|
|
| sam1196 |
Posted on 20-03-2012 11:46
|
Protected Rider
Posts: 1493
Joined: 11-10-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
Do you really think that Nibali was thinking about Cancellara when he planned his attack? I don't think so, i think he was thinking about going solo dropping like an eagle down the Poggio and loose as less time as possible on the flat.
To be fair you cant attack in a spring classic and dont think about Cancellara, as he is doing the same move every classic and usually someone follow him and win from his slipstream
he surely knew that there was a probability that Cancellara was able to follow, but he don't need to cover up his own ambitions because there's one or two that could spoil your attack.
VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO VINO
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-03-2012 12:38
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
sam1196 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
sam1196 wrote:
Do you really think that Nibali was thinking about Cancellara when he planned his attack? I don't think so, i think he was thinking about going solo dropping like an eagle down the Poggio and loose as less time as possible on the flat.
To be fair you cant attack in a spring classic and dont think about Cancellara, as he is doing the same move every classic and usually someone follow him and win from his slipstream
he surely knew that there was a probability that Cancellara was able to follow, but he don't need to cover up his own ambitions because there's one or two that could spoil your attack.
Yeah, but Nibali should know he is not able to outsprint even the turtle after 5 kms of flat riding
|
| |
|
|
| litllemagnum |
Posted on 20-03-2012 12:48
|
Domestique
Posts: 424
Joined: 14-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
If Sagan would have went with Cancellara, they would have been caught and someone else would win in the sprint and then Liquigas wouldn't even have a 3rd place
Pozzato sucks!
|
| |
|
