I don't follow cycling that closely (Giro, Tour, and the April classics is all I usually watch), and didn't see it mentioned here, so I wanted to ask... How unprecedented (or not) is it for someone to be close to their top form all the way from Paris-Nice to the Tour, as Wiggins (judging by results at least) looks to have been?
In PCM at least that would be pretty much impossible.
MikhailM wrote:
I don't follow cycling that closely (Giro, Tour, and the April classics is all I usually watch), and didn't see it mentioned here, so I wanted to ask... How unprecedented (or not) is it for someone to be close to their top form all the way from Paris-Nice to the Tour, as Wiggins (judging by results at least) looks to have been?
In PCM at least that would be pretty much impossible.
Well in reading I guess he has a new trainer (from a swimming background?) that is putting big emphasis on being in form all year, not just for parts of it. This concept doesn't seem unreasonable to me as essentially every other sport in the world the athletes don't go in and out of form except maybe the offseason.
lluuiiggii wrote:
What does crashing out have to do with doping or not anyways? I can't find much logic in some of your statements.
If Wiggins and Froome keep performing the way they are and Evans beats them, then yes, as mb2612 said, he could be doping, and it'd be suspicious. If Froome and Wiggins come back to their whole-life normal in the next stages and then Evans beat them, it'll be normal.
Correct me if I've read this the wrong way, but according to this the only way for Froome and Wiggins to be not doping is to have Evans beat them?
MikhailM wrote:
I don't follow cycling that closely (Giro, Tour, and the April classics is all I usually watch), and didn't see it mentioned here, so I wanted to ask... How unprecedented (or not) is it for someone to be close to their top form all the way from Paris-Nice to the Tour, as Wiggins (judging by results at least) looks to have been?
In PCM at least that would be pretty much impossible.
Well in reading I guess he has a new trainer (from a swimming background?) that is putting big emphasis on being in form all year, not just for parts of it. This concept doesn't seem unreasonable to me as essentially every other sport in the world the athletes don't go in and out of form except maybe the offseason.
Yeah the trainer is from swimming Tim Kerrison I believe, he's a perfomance analyst I think.
lluuiiggii wrote:
What does crashing out have to do with doping or not anyways? I can't find much logic in some of your statements.
If Wiggins and Froome keep performing the way they are and Evans beats them, then yes, as mb2612 said, he could be doping, and it'd be suspicious. If Froome and Wiggins come back to their whole-life normal in the next stages and then Evans beat them, it'll be normal.
Correct me if I've read this the wrong way, but according to this the only way for Froome and Wiggins to be not doping is to have Evans beat them?
Not really. What I meant is that, after two important days for the GC, Wiggins' and Froome's performances are way too dominant and quite suspicious for me, so if they keep performing like that in the coming days and Evans suddenly is stronger than them to the point of taking 2 mins back on Wiggins, then I'd find Evans performance quite suspicious as well.
Btw, it would be wrong to say that "the only way they are not doping is this" = to affirm that they currently are doping. All I (and I'd guess most people here arguing on this side) have are suspicious (in some case very high ones), with arguments to defend it but no conclusive evidence (arguments like the huge increase of performance of some riders, Sky's team doctor past, etc). So it's not unfounded thoughts, but there's no definitive proof.
i'd be more sceptical if these were the margins in the final time trial
you have to remember that a similar profile course (yes, i'm calling the Grenoble TT similar to this one) was ridden last year, of which Cancellara finished 1min42 down on the winner (even Peraud beat Cance in that TT)
now if this domination is seen in the pan-flat TT of stage 19, then i'd have larger doubts, especially considering that all favourites would have some form ahead of the impending Olympics
of course, i'd have been interested to see what a fully-fit Martin would have done
he's better in the hillier TTs imo
the TT aside,
it's not unusual to see a domestique (which is essentially what Froome is) dropping GC guys, Szmyd's been doing it for years
granted, he's not been demolishing the pack over the last 3kms of a steep mountain stage (that i can remember) but that's because the liqui climbing team (Szmyd aside) is worse than Rogers/Porte/Sivtsov (2 top 10 Giro riders of the past few years)
now don't call me a blind fanboy, i'm as firm a believer as the next guy, but let's put the results into context here
samdiatmh wrote:
i'd be more sceptical if these were the margins in the final time trial
you have to remember that a similar profile course (yes, i'm calling the Grenoble TT similar to this one) was ridden last year, of which Cancellara finished 1min42 down on the winner (even Peraud beat Cance in that TT)
now if this domination is seen in the pan-flat TT of stage 19, then i'd have larger doubts, especially considering that all favourites would have some form ahead of the impending Olympics
of course, i'd have been interested to see what a fully-fit Martin would have done
he's better in the hillier TTs imo
the TT aside,
it's not unusual to see a domestique (which is essentially what Froome is) dropping GC guys, Szmyd's been doing it for years
granted, he's not been demolishing the pack over the last 3kms of a steep mountain stage (that i can remember) but that's because the liqui climbing team (Szmyd aside) is worse than Rogers/Porte/Sivtsov (2 top 10 Giro riders of the past few years)
now don't call me a blind fanboy, i'm as firm a believer as the next guy, but let's put the results into context here
Szmyd demolishes the pack. Then he cracks and slows almost to a halt because he is tired and recovers before finishing around 30th or 40th. Rogers and Porte on the summit finish fell off the back and passed riders as they came by = a humongous amount of endurance.
Edited by baseballlover312 on 10-07-2012 04:26
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
samdiatmh wrote:
you have to remember that a similar profile course (yes, i'm calling the Grenoble TT similar to this one) was ridden last year, of which Cancellara finished 1min42 down on the winner (even Peraud beat Cance in that TT)
Cancellara claimed of breathing problems in the last year's Tour TT. I don't think the hills have made such a difference here. It's a valid point, but imo not much relevant in the result. Also should be kept in mind that Cancellara took it very easy yesterday (two days ago actually), finishing 90th at 13 minutes from Pinot, in order to preserve energy for the TT, whereas Wiggins and Froome were up there racing.
samdiatmh wrote:
you have to remember that a similar profile course (yes, i'm calling the Grenoble TT similar to this one) was ridden last year, of which Cancellara finished 1min42 down on the winner (even Peraud beat Cance in that TT)
Cancellara claimed of breathing problems in the last year's Tour TT. I don't think the hills have made such a difference here. It's a valid point, but imo not much relevant in the result. Also should be kept in mind that Cancellara took it very easy yesterday (two days ago actually), finishing 90th at 13 minutes from Pinot, in order to preserve energy for the TT, whereas Wiggins and Froome were up there racing.
and they still managed to beat FABIAN CANCELLARA, THE SPARTACUS HIMSELF. NO WAY, GTFO SKY DOPING C*nts
lluuiiggii wrote:
Also should be kept in mind that Cancellara took it very easy yesterday (two days ago actually), finishing 90th at 13 minutes from Pinot, in order to preserve energy for the TT, whereas Wiggins and Froome were up there racing.
i wouldn't say that
he finished with the group of Zabriskie/Bak/Millar/Martin which is where i'd expect him to finish on stage like that
also, it could be possible that Evans had a bad day
looking at the results sheet, he finished about 30secs faster than Martin
taking into account the fact that Martin is nowhere near peak fitness right now (went into that TT testing out his wrist's capabilities) and the puncture, then that's a fairly shameful result for Evans
dgtgoheels wrote:
Like many of the dopers in the 00s they kept their blood levels just under 50% the entire 3 weeks which is unnatural as your hematocrit would decrease from about 45% at the start to 33% (just throwing out numbers) at the end of 3 week race regardless of genetic makeup.
The decrease should be between 2 and 4 % actually.
While we're here, does anyone still have Wiggins blood values through the Tour de France 2009 ? I seem to remember that when displayed as an evidence of being clean, it actually led to think he had a blood refill or two on the way.
dgtgoheels wrote:
Like many of the dopers in the 00s they kept their blood levels just under 50% the entire 3 weeks which is unnatural as your hematocrit would decrease from about 45% at the start to 33% (just throwing out numbers) at the end of 3 week race regardless of genetic makeup.
The decrease should be between 2 and 4 % actually.
While we're here, does anyone still have Wiggins blood values through the Tour de France 2009 ? I seem to remember that when displayed as an evidence of being clean, it actually led to think he had a blood refill or two on the way.
Haha I knew I was off but the premise still holds that it declines. I am sure the % decrease is greater for the non-GC guys. Then of course hematocrit can be greatly manipulated by things like dehydration.
It's hard to discern what dates the Giro started and where it ended on the chart (May 9th to May 31st). What struck me was his spike of 47.1% that looks like right at or before the start. And the 39.7% at the end.
While I don't know all the technical jargon the easily distinguishable downward slopping is pretty recognizable a fact that the Slipstream heads pointed out showing how natural it is for it to fall unlike Lance's blood values.
Funny thread this is
One can laugh about some posts, but also can learn from some, i am still not sure what i think about that all.
Of course it seems very suspicious to me, i was one of the many that accused Froome right in the last autumn and i dont still believe in him, but one must take into the the account what Ruben pointed out about lack of real competition. I would get this in case of Wiggins, but the weirdest thing is what Sky is able to do as the whole, especially Porte and Rogers, who are suddenly better mountain domestiques than likes of Szmyd.
And if i am pretty confident about something, that even if Sky riders are doped, they will not be caught during the Tour or in the next few years. If they are on something, it seems like the super modern thingy, which is not detectable.
So Sky i am watching you (although it will be very boring watch, i hope for some attacks from the rest).
Edit: At least nobody is trying to accuse Sagan when we have bigger fishes in the dirty pond Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 10-07-2012 07:57
ruben wrote:
Lol... all this Sky doping and mass hysteria thread over their performance.
I'm having a major deja-vu (Vuelta last year).
Seriously. There's nothing weird going on here imho. Sky just have the luck that everything is falling into place, all of the puzzle pieces, at the right time. They've had a near perfect preparation. None of their team were involved in any major crashes this year or this Tour.
The two biggest TDF stars of recent years, Contador and Andy Schleck, are not participating this year.
Many of the other top 10 contenders who might have caused trouble for Sky in the mountains, have been decimated by crashes, in fact so hard that only 3/4 others remained.
It is no suprise they are dominating now. And no it's no suprise Froome beats Cancellara in a time trial. Because Cancellara, while good, is not in the absolute peak form in time trials he had 2/3 years ago. He's slightly off because of the fall he had in Flanders. Just a few weeks ago he was beaten in Suisse by Kessiakoff, and there were 5 others that stayed within 20 seconds of Cance...
So again, the mass hysteria and doping accusations are laughable.
Let's just enjoy the Tour. The first mountain stages were suprisingly good. And with so many GC contenders already far behind in the GC they won't just sit back and do nothing, but attack to win stages or improve their position now
So, just to be perfectly clear: It is your opinion that their performance isn't that awesome, it just looks awesome due to a combination of factors?
I mean I can buy that everyone messed up except Sky once. 5 times in one season is taking the piss.
TheManxMissile wrote:
We are 9 stages in to the Tour
There are 12 to go, anything can, and probably will happen
If Evans beats wiggins and froome what then? are they all doped?
If Froome crashes out will we hear anything else about him possibly doping?
If Radioshack win the team classification are they all doped, or just wiggins froome porte and rogers?
Another way to look at it is, we're 9 stages into the Tour and already the GC sees tour winning margins.
Kentaurus wrote:
MikhailM wrote:
I don't follow cycling that closely (Giro, Tour, and the April classics is all I usually watch), and didn't see it mentioned here, so I wanted to ask... How unprecedented (or not) is it for someone to be close to their top form all the way from Paris-Nice to the Tour, as Wiggins (judging by results at least) looks to have been?
In PCM at least that would be pretty much impossible.
Well in reading I guess he has a new trainer (from a swimming background?) that is putting big emphasis on being in form all year, not just for parts of it. This concept doesn't seem unreasonable to me as essentially every other sport in the world the athletes don't go in and out of form except maybe the offseason.
Actually swimming is all about never reaching peak other than your single biggest goal of the year. Not saying that's what Kerrison is aiming for, of course.
Edited by issoisso on 10-07-2012 08:12
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
I find total domination over a complete season a lot more believable than being crap all season and shining in the Tour all of a sudden. It happens in most sports and cycling has been the odd one out. Now it looks as if Sky has either found the holy grail of doping or just found the best way of doing things over a 1 week or 3 week race. It can't be that surprising that a team who completely reinvent their way of doing things can be dominating. Never happens in any sport anywhere huh?
Edited by tyriion on 10-07-2012 09:10
TheManxMissile wrote:
We are 9 stages in to the Tour
There are 12 to go, anything can, and probably will happen
If Evans beats wiggins and froome what then? are they all doped?
If Froome crashes out will we hear anything else about him possibly doping?
If Radioshack win the team classification are they all doped, or just wiggins froome porte and rogers?
Another way to look at it is, we're 9 stages into the Tour and already the GC sees tour winning margins.
We've seen margins far bigger than this disappear in a stage, let alone 12 (admittedly not for a while)
Am i the only one that thinks the Tour isn't over?
TheManxMissile wrote:
We are 9 stages in to the Tour
There are 12 to go, anything can, and probably will happen
If Evans beats wiggins and froome what then? are they all doped?
If Froome crashes out will we hear anything else about him possibly doping?
If Radioshack win the team classification are they all doped, or just wiggins froome porte and rogers?
Another way to look at it is, we're 9 stages into the Tour and already the GC sees tour winning margins.
We've seen margins far bigger than this disappear in a stage, let alone 12 (admittedly not for a while)
Am i the only one that thinks the Tour isn't over?
As long as Wiggins/Fromme will not crash, they will finish 1-2, there is no doubt for me. Only if Froome was not interested in 2nd, which i dont believe can happen...
Apart from some disaster befalling them, Wiggin's and Froome have more to prove than Nibali and Evans when it comes to performing in the 3rd week of a GT. Of course they are looking very good but it isn't over.
Edited by ianrussell on 10-07-2012 11:05
issoisso wrote:
Actually swimming is all about never reaching peak other than your single biggest goal of the year. Not saying that's what Kerrison is aiming for, of course.
I've got a mate who's doing fin swimming at the highest level, and until one year ago he trained with regular swimmers (not "with", but in the same swimming pools, living with them, etc.).
His training is schedule so that he'll peak three times this season. One world cup event in March, National championships mid-June, and European championships in August. No Olympics for fin swimmers.
To my knowledge, it works the same with the regular swimmers, except that one of their goal is of a much bigger importance (either the continental or the world championships, either the olympic games).
Edited by Aquarius on 10-07-2012 11:30
ruben wrote:
Lol... all this Sky doping and mass hysteria thread over their performance.
I'm having a major deja-vu (Vuelta last year).
Seriously. There's nothing weird going on here imho. Sky just have the luck that everything is falling into place, all of the puzzle pieces, at the right time. They've had a near perfect preparation. None of their team were involved in any major crashes this year or this Tour.
The two biggest TDF stars of recent years, Contador and Andy Schleck, are not participating this year.
Many of the other top 10 contenders who might have caused trouble for Sky in the mountains, have been decimated by crashes, in fact so hard that only 3/4 others remained.
It is no suprise they are dominating now. And no it's no suprise Froome beats Cancellara in a time trial. Because Cancellara, while good, is not in the absolute peak form in time trials he had 2/3 years ago. He's slightly off because of the fall he had in Flanders. Just a few weeks ago he was beaten in Suisse by Kessiakoff, and there were 5 others that stayed within 20 seconds of Cance...
So again, the mass hysteria and doping accusations are laughable.
Let's just enjoy the Tour. The first mountain stages were suprisingly good. And with so many GC contenders already far behind in the GC they won't just sit back and do nothing, but attack to win stages or improve their position now
So, just to be perfectly clear: It is your opinion that their performance isn't that awesome, it just looks awesome due to a combination of factors?
I mean I can buy that everyone messed up except Sky once. 5 times in one season is taking the piss.
If I'm not mistaken he won the Paris-Nice, Dauphine and Romandie all in the time trials. In Paris-Nice, he lost time to Westra on Stage 5 and then only beat him in the final time trial by 2 seconds. Also his only real competitor outside Westra who was in good shape was Valverde, who had terrible time trials and didn't attack Wiggins when he should have.
In the Dauphine, he didn't gain much time in the prologue, lost time to Evans in Stage 1, but then raped him in the Stage 4 time trial which Evans admits he wasn't in good shape and also possibly wasn't going full gas as he did manage to pull away from Wiggins at the end of the stage, on Stage 6 Quintana was allowed to pull away and Evans even managed to gain 8 seconds on Wiggins here and on the final stage Wiggins again lost time to Evans and a lead group of 9.
In Romandie, Wiggins didn't have a great prologue, but he managed to win Stage 1 by the weird sprint that occurred, LLS took the jersey from him on Stage 4 after winning the previous 2 stages, but again Wiggins won the Romandie on the final time trial where he put a good amount of time into LLS to take the jersey. But still if you look at the GC there wasn't any real contenders who really did anything in the way of attacking Wiggins, heck even Andrew Talansky came 2nd overall!
So bringing these races into the argument does nothing Isso, Wiggins won these races on the time trials within them and couple that with the factor that his GC rivals never really attacked him that much or there weren't many GC rivals who could challenge him as he was in better shape than most. He never won a mountain stage, apart from Stage 8 on P-N, and lost time on quite a few of them but won it back in the time trials where he is strong.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
