df_Trek wrote:
-Croatia: no arguments by him, I dislike this in particular because he actually posted something around, but just few short post whit questions, a lynch vote to an inactive player and a sensation that I disagree on Quadsas [-T +M]
Quite similar thoughts here but i won't vote to lynch him today. There are guys with bigger question marks around, i want to hear more from him on day 1+2 and i won't start it again this quickly
df_Trek wrote:
-Quadsas: playing aggressively like last edition, whit same arguments, this can somehow lead me to think he is in the same faction [+T -M]
If he were mafia, he would surely try to copy that style, too, since it was so distinctive.
He annoys me since he seems to think completely different on everything than me but he doesnt give me mafia vibes so far. Basically a null read so far.
-Marcovdw: I don't like his post, because he just renew his presence saying absolutley nothing. Ok the flu, but in the way he wrote that, he could also try to argue a bit more, but the message looks like a "see you again next days!". [-T +M]
About Bikex ok, his first day post is not bad, but atm he is missing from 3 days and he wasn't online, I can't judge his situation like others who wrote untill today.
df_Trek wrote:
-Hillis, Bikex, Waghlon: not recived yet (this isn't helping the town)
I'd add marco into this category too (Bikex only post gave me somewhat positive vibes). I bolded the bracketed sentence!
I put Marco in a different situation, because he actually posted again and I dislike the way he did it.
How do you rate Marcos first post? Completely understandable (and null read) considering he got lynched day 1 Mafia IX because of a similar discussion or any other thoughts about that?
How do you rate Marcos first post? Completely understandable (and null read) considering he got lynched day 1 Mafia IX because of a similar discussion or any other thoughts about that?
To me looks like a logical reasoning to protect himself regardless his alignment
baseballlover312 wrote:
Knockout: But his strategy of claiming power roles, but no what they are, actually seems more dangerous to me. It tells the mafia who the power roles are, vastly increasing their chances at killing someone important, just like a real massclaim. However, it doesn't tell the doctor who's who, making it easier for the mafia to kill the doctor or detective when they go through the power roles. Seems like an unfortunate middle ground to me, and the fact that knockout suggests it, while subtly reversing his overall opinion on claiming by the end of the post, is dubious to me..
The thing is that a completely open roleclaim renders the doctor useless because the mafia can start by having the strongman take out the investigative role they fear more first without the doctor being able to defend that. Then they can take out the doctor since he cannot protect himself. However, with my power role / vanilla townie massclaim suggestion the mafia can not do ideal game planning and we have a higher chance of the doctor saving someone or both investigative roles surviving night 1 than a standard role massclaim. All these benefits while still confirming them as protown in case of no mafia power role claim.
Hope that shows you that this is no unfortunate middle ground and would actually benefit the town more than a role massclaim?
I dont mind explaining it further if that helps you speculating about my allignment but if it doesnt, id rather see the focus of the discussion shift back towards suspects / innocent now instead of the technicality of a proposed massclaim that wont happen.
Okay, I see your point now. I wouldn't have been in favor of a regular role claim anyway, but I can't see why this might be preferable given the presence of the strongman.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
How do you rate Marcos first post? Completely understandable (and null read) considering he got lynched day 1 Mafia IX because of a similar discussion or any other thoughts about that?
To me looks like a logical reasoning to protect himself regardless his alignment
I'm going to stay with my main stance on no mass claims, mostly because I feel it puts the town at a huge disadvantage, firstly, if the detective claims, the doctor is pressured into protecting them, meaning the mafia can kill whoever they want provided the doctor isn't keen on playing super risky. If the Doctor claims, the mafia will always know when they are eliminated and once that happens they can once again kill whoever claims, whereas if the doctor never claims, the mafia can never be truly sure if they are alive or dead and a claimed detective might be able to go unkilled even without protection, because the mafia doesn't want to waste a night. This can also work in the inverse, like a couple games ago when the doctor was unrevealed but alive with 4 players left and the mafia lost because the doctor managed to save the obvious kill. This means that the doctor should usually not claim even if they are on the verge of being lynched!
On the tracker and politician I'm a bit less fussed, both are useful roles, but if we can confirm one without the mafia counter claiming (before any deaths happen), we can get somebody who the doctor can play 50/50s on protecting and the entire town can trust, though it's down to personal preference - as long as it's not both of them claiming as that puts too much pressure on the doctor, I'd say in this case it'd be the politician claiming as they're slightly less useful as they can't identify mafia, but I can see arguments for it being the tracker too.
That's not to say that a massclaim is necessarily bad as we can confirm players and increase our odds of a random lynch each night being correct, but it also means that we'll lose our most valuable players quickly.
Otherwise, I'd like to make the statement that always ends up being redundant every game that we really need to lynch somebody each day. Since the mafia is usually going to kill the least suspicious players, we often don't gain a ton of info from their kill and just lose a good player, while if we're at least lynching we at least force people to post (giving us more to analyse) and even if we fail to lynch mafia we remove suspicious players.
#2
Spoiler
trekbmc wrote:
@Kandesbunzler - I understand your point, but I'd like to also mention the inverse that we've rarely had any game where our investigative roles have actually succeeded in finding that much valuable information and I don't really feel like being stuck in the position where we are just sitting there waiting for the detective (and tracker I guess), to find information and out themselves as the mafia picks us off.
However, I feel like the issue with this situation is that it kinda assumes that the mafia just kills randomly or spitefully. However, the mafia are realistically just going to kill a bunch of our most trustworthy players, giving us no real information and forcing the detective to make guesses off also very little information. Whereas if we are actively lynching players, not only are we either taking out mafia, or in the worst case removing the most suspicious players to remove a distraction, we are also giving everybody, including the detective, a chance to see everybody play, form opinions and try to figure out who the mafia is.
Mafia is a game about information, and the more you force the mafia (And well, everybody) to talk, make votes and interact with other players, the more information we have to make decisions. In Mafia VII we only had 8 pages total, maybe 6 if we're generous of actual discussion and at the final pivotal 50/50 it was simply impossible to tell who the mafia is because there was nothing to go on. Lynching forces the mafia (and townspeople too) to take sides, engage in discussion and speak, allowing everybody to attempt to read other people and gauge who they are suspicious of, when the game is almost always going to come down to a tough decision at some point, having more information to reference could really be our saving grace.
Also, a nice benefit of the town regularly lynching is that a detective who is playing very well can at least attempt to nudge the town towards a suspicious player without literally having to out themselves initially.
I am just going to throw it out there again, why do you keep insisting that finding innocent people is somehow not important? you completely ignored it when I told you that the first time. I am not sure why you're trying to half ass things, it honestly seems like an evil trying to help town but not really.
lynch knockout
Lynching Knockout seems like such a weird play here, sure, there's a chance he is mafia, and you have every right to suspect that he is, but at this point, he is the most active player and is the only person really making an effort to organise the town. There are a bunch of players sitting in silence or posting the bare minimum, while Knockout has already made a bunch of posts that can be analysed, can be compared to previous games, can be compared to other players and can force people to speak.
I might be keen to suspect or vote for him later, I might be decide to trust him, I don't know, but either way, right now generating activity so that we can analyse each player and force things to happen is going to do us way better than randomly lynching the most active player in the game because he's trying to start a discussion.
I really don't like how passive so many people are intent on playing this and to be honest we've seen this benefit the mafia in so many games that I can't help but find it happening once again just inexplicable and it's unfortunate because it makes me immediately lose some trust in anybody who just wants to wait it out. If you want an example of how badly this goes, read Mafia VII
For now, I'm voting to Lynch Jaxika, because as far as I'm aware he's the only player to not have posted and I want everybody posting at least, will probably flip it to some of the other less active players if he makes a good post. I know this is copying Sammy, but it's less of a vote and more of a "Hey, you need to start posting more" kinda vote.
Quite some long and well structured posts so I'm gonna summarize his posts a bit:
What are we supposed to do now: - "we really need to lynch somebody each day"
- "if we're at least lynching we at least force people to post (giving us more to analyse)"
- "I don't really feel like being stuck in the position where we are just sitting there waiting for the detective (and tracker I guess), to find information"
- ". Whereas if we are actively lynching players, not only are we either taking out mafia, or in the worst case removing the most suspicious players to remove a distraction, we are also giving everybody, including the detective, a chance to see everybody play, form opinions and try to figure out who the mafia is."
- " force the mafia (And well, everybody) to talk, make votes and interact with other players"
- "making an effort to organise the town"
A lot of good stuff in there. He has understood what we discussed in previous games and articulates that well. Let's see how he helps in following that strategy:
Everytime where he forces someone to post / asks questions to someone / pressures someone / appears to want to know more about someone or something: - "For now, I'm voting to Lynch Jaxika, because as far as I'm aware he's the only player to not have posted and I want everybody posting at least, will probably flip it to some of the other less active players if he makes a good post. [...] it's less of a vote and more of a "Hey, you need to start posting more" kinda vote."
Now that is really a lot compared to the wall of texts. And how powerful that pressure is. I'm sure he did a lot of analyzing players then without directly poking them.
Everytime he tries to make a judgement about someone: - .
Nah, couldnt find anything either. Well - he defends me and says it is a weird or bad move to lynch me but he also doesnt want to make a statement towards me stating that he believes I'm more likely protown than others but rather just points towards activity = beneficial at this point.
I feel positive atm to defend knockout and I read this more like a protown move, I agree almost the entire post, but now I'm curious to see what he will do with his vote. [+T - M]
I don't think I'm exaggerate when I'm saying that i drive a lot of the discussion on this first day. (I hope I'm not too self focussed here If you don't want to put out any other of your opinions too loudly as mafia, it can help if you defend someone who drives the discussion to stay in his favor in the hope of being overlooked in the discussion. Wouldnt you say so, Jseadog?
tl;dr: trekbmc knows how we are supposed to play this from the start. He seems to want to help a lot by writing looooong well-thought-out posts with lots of smart suggestions in it. The stuff that he knows others expect to hear from him. But his actions says something else. He preaches but doesnt act. I think he is the most likely mafia member at this point.
I don't think I'm exaggerate when I'm saying that i drive a lot of the discussion on this first day. (I hope I'm not too self focussed here If you don't want to put out any other of your opinions too loudly as mafia, it can help if you defend someone who drives the discussion to stay in his favor in the hope of being overlooked in the discussion. Wouldnt you say so, Jseadog?
People tend to play the same game each time whether they are mafia or town, and I am one of the players that knows this from experience.
I understand what you are saying, however. I like the points you are making but is that really enough to just hop on a lynch wagon on Day 1? Does a day 1 lynch really ever work out? I remember in earlier versions of the game there was RARELY a Day 1 lynch and the town won more often than not.
In fact, no lynches were fairly popular even midway through the game.
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
seems to be a large over-reach by both quadsas and knockout in their respective lynch votes... I'm not even too sure with quadsas' post after knockout's lynch on trekbmc - could you actually explain what you mean? I'm generally a knockout-sceptic compared to most in this town but I dont think theres generally anything they've done that screams mafia to me so far.
also unvote on sammyt - I still think they are suspicious to me
BBL's view on knockout's vanilla role claim scheme seems honest enough for me and I do agree with it mostly and seems like a town read for me. Likewise I do like df_trek so far.
John St Ledger in Team Bunzl-Centrica and Team U25
I'd also like to state that yes, this town is very bad at picking their political leaders and I am unfortunately your political representative!
Dont think the doctor necessarily has to be on me - the mafia are only going to kill me with the strongman use ability anyway so it may be better for you to focus on saving other pro-town targets Or is it?
John St Ledger in Team Bunzl-Centrica and Team U25
ryant wrote: I'd also like to state that yes, this town is very bad at picking their political leaders and I am unfortunately your political representative!
Dont think the doctor necessarily has to be on me - the mafia are only going to kill me with the strongman use ability anyway so it may be better for you to focus on saving other pro-town targets Or is it?
jseadog1 wrote:
People tend to play the same game each time whether they are mafia or town, and I am one of the players that knows this from experience.
I understand what you are saying, however. I like the points you are making but is that really enough to just hop on a lynch wagon on Day 1? Does a day 1 lynch really ever work out? I remember in earlier versions of the game there was RARELY a Day 1 lynch and the town won more often than not.
In fact, no lynches were fairly popular even midway through the game.
They try to play the game the same way but that is not always easy. I know that from experience too. And trekbmc tried to make it look the same way again. Writing these long posts in support of lynching is always part of his game but he fails to follow through on it this time.
ryant wrote: I'd also like to state that yes, this town is very bad at picking their political leaders and I am unfortunately your political representative!
Dont think the doctor necessarily has to be on me - the mafia are only going to kill me with the strongman use ability anyway so it may be better for you to focus on saving other pro-town targets Or is it?
Twice in a row huh
wow, really, what a coincidence
I have to say that I wouldn't probably did the same, but the fact you weren't in pressure (unless you are not counterclaimed) this call appears quite a fair at my eyes.
I don't think I'm exaggerate when I'm saying that i drive a lot of the discussion on this first day. (I hope I'm not too self focussed here If you don't want to put out any other of your opinions too loudly as mafia, it can help if you defend someone who drives the discussion to stay in his favor in the hope of being overlooked in the discussion. Wouldnt you say so, Jseadog?
ok, but his points on defending you looked good and moreover putting himself in a not really confort zone, exposing to doubts and criticisms by other players. I felt it more propositive than hiding behind you.
df_Trek wrote:
-Marcovdw: I don't like his post, because he just renew his presence saying absolutley nothing. Ok the flu, but in the way he wrote that, he could also try to argue a bit more, but the message looks like a "see you again next days!". [-T +M]
Fair enough, I'll try something more elaborate
- Quadsas being Quadsas, so I'm not going up that avenue again. You and knockout are right that my post was meant as a cover so I wouldn't get into trouble over that again.
- The main stream of activity at the moment is the dialogue between df_Trek and knockout. A good vantage point for those who are not very good at reading other people's actions (including myself). For the first day, lynching either of them would not be a good idea.
- As for my opinion if we should lynch someone on the first day, I would be open to it if we can narrow it down to a few supect(s) but I'm not in favor of taking a shot in the dark just to reduce the numbers. There needs to be a reasonable suspicion.
- I said I wouldn't dip into the whole role claiming discussion but my only suggestion would be that if someone is in danger of being lynched (ie has lynch votes on the last day) and has a power role, then come out.
Probably not as elaborate as you want but I've never been good at poking and getting people to talk, I'll be the first to admit that.
As I have to work a lot until tomorrow evening and thus won't have time to make an elaborate post (especially pointing at someone on a justifiable base) I will leave my vote here: lynch noone
This shouldn't really be a surprise anyway.
Should anything surprising happen until the end of the day I will hopefully be able to react, otherwise I should be able to be more active the next days.
If you don't want to put out any other of your opinions too loudly as mafia, it can help if you defend someone who drives the discussion to stay in his favor in the hope of being overlooked in the discussion. 
Or is it? 
