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Decisiontime! Which PCM version for next season?
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 11-04-2022 18:27
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Team Leader
Posts: 5534
Joined: 12-06-2013
PCM$: 500.00
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I do believe we either stay with PCM 20 or move to 22.
I fully understand the frustrations of Managers with PCM 20 as it does seem like the AI just behaves rather strangely and rather randomly which punishes certain riders and teams far more than others. However, as 1 of 4 reports, at least we have 4 reporters.
PCM 22 sounds like a good option but all of that testing would really have to be done before we can use it. I also personally probably won't be able to report on it as my laptop is being pushed hard as it is.
My bigger concern/problem is that other than a number of those who get extensively involved in the various off-season tasks which takes up a lot of time, there are only 4/5 users actively reporting across the 60-odd managers in the game.
Unfortunately it also appears there are serious inactivity issues, for example, 8 of the 22 managers in the Tour de France haven't posted a single comment in the thread for what is really one of the biggest races of the season.
I think it's a real kick in the guts for Managers whose teams perform poorly but they're there getting involved regardless to then relegate but a Manager who posts less than 10 comments all season keeps their place in a higher division.
I know there are general concerns around the number of Managers but a completely inactive manager is worse than not having managers at all in my opinion.
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| Nemolito |
Posted on 11-04-2022 18:29
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3386
Joined: 20-04-2020
PCM$: 425.00
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redordead wrote:
Especially the people who tend to be the loudest, do the least amount of work.
Not thinking about anyone in particular but I do agree that we really can't expect the same few people of the last seasons to once again do several (big) changes and spend tons of hours on something that in the end, once again, most will be unhappy with.
Everybody is obviously allowed to have an opinion, some say it louder than others, and I think all input is a nice extra and can be very useful. But then, once again, even a small change (or what would be considered a small change for people not in the off-season team) could take so much time. Definitely DB stuff and stage profile changes. It's impossible to please everyone and I know the few guys actually doing stuff do the best they can, and I'm very grateful for that.
I'll go with the flow whatever game is chosen. For reporters a (big) problem with PCM15 is that the game can really shut down any moment, whereas I only had it happen once on PCM18/20 combined, in more than 200 reports.
Which brings me to the last point. I've enjoyed reporting, even though there have been days where I was very annoyed because of only negative comments in the thread. Have my final reports stored on my pc for later in the season, but for now my reporting days are over. When I see a TDF thread atm with days of like 1 or 2 people commenting, I think it's a real shame. I am very much in favour of activity actually being rewarded, whatever version we decide on.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 11-04-2022 18:38
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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redordead wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
I didn't know the +stage concept had been tested. If it's working and Sprint stage races are now working properly, added to the obvious (i hope!) further changes to OVL and Wage/RD calculations of sprinters then i'm a lot happier about PCM20 going forwards.
I tested adding a MO stage to sprint races and found it got rid of the leader bug. I also didn't spot any downsides with that.
Then i'm definitely much happier with any decision taken, as this would rectify (what imo is) the biggest issue we have in the game on PCM20.
Being able to take a full seasons worth of knowledge into the offseason so we can continue to tweak the calendar, DB, formula's etc then PCM20 is a real strong option.
____
Questions around overall structures, activity, reporters etc can be looked at of course. Maybe we need a dedicate Suggestions 2022 Thread to prevent too many confusing threads being open?
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 11-04-2022 18:58
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 11709
Joined: 27-07-2015
PCM$: 1861.50
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I will just add to the ongoing discussion on the off season stuff for a scale of just how much work falls on very few individuals:
1) 3 people worked on getting new stages for this season. 1 person signed off on them. 2 of the 3 got screenshots for all stages, cropped them, put the profile stickers on them and uploaded them to the server. That is for 127 races!
2) 2 of the above 4 worked on the OVL changes for the DB
3) 2 of the 4 from point 1 worked on restructuring the calendar to spread out the races and have an even spread among divisions so that all specializations have an near equal share of RDs
4) 1 person worked on the new rider additions
5) 2 persons from point 1 and 4 others helped update the race profiles thread
6) 1 person from point 1 worked on contracts
7) Same person as above and 1 more person helped update stats for levelling up riders and declines
8) 3 persons, including 2 from point 5 wrote band previews
9) 2 persons from those already mentioned above wrote GT previews
Sorry if I missed anything but that is 5 managers working full time on the off-season stuff and 6 others helping with four of the mentioned tasks.
5 managers working on the off season is anyway too less. If we have to go back to previous versions, the whole DB needs to be reworked again, much more so for PCM 15 than PCM 18. Older stages will need to be searched for and maybe edited again. All stages from PCM 17 onwards work for PCM 20 (and 18). That will not be the case for PCM 15. Reporters will need to get back the older game versions again as well. Considerable number of codes were shared for PCM 20. 4 full-time reporters is also too less for an entire season of this magnitude! I have not been able to do much myself this season for various real-life reasons.
Finally, if you go back, there's even less chance of attracting new managers into the game because obviously they do not play the older games.
I will say that I would like to stay with PCM 20 for the 2022 season, simply because there isn't time between when the new game will be launched to when we hopefully will start the new season to decide about PCM 22. I would like to propose a decision to move to PCM 22 for the 2023 season.
Edited by AbhishekLFC on 11-04-2022 19:07
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| quadsas |
Posted on 11-04-2022 19:13
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2520
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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I've volunteered at least last couple years with what needed to be done (and did it), however, none of those things listed were included. Don't think it's fair to call people out for not helping (a few people in this thread) when it seems only inner circle so to speak want to handle those things.
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 19:23
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World Champion
Posts: 12200
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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I have no clue whether or not I am on the list of people doing too little and talking too loudly. Some might think/feel that. I try my best to help out whenever I can, with things that are within my competences. I do agree that we need to lift in shared and to volunteer for help.
But I also think it’s wrong to make this discussion circle around who Can and cannot say this and that. All managers have a say about the future of the game regardless of the amount of effort they have put into it. Obviously the ones doing the tasks need to be heard specifically regarding the actual/possible amount of workload needed, but it should never keep non/low contributors from having free room to speak their interests.
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 11-04-2022 19:23
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 11709
Joined: 27-07-2015
PCM$: 1861.50
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quadsas wrote:
I've volunteered at least last couple years with what needed to be done (and did it), however, none of those things listed were included. Don't think it's fair to call people out for not helping (a few people in this thread) when it seems only inner circle so to speak want to handle those things.
There is a off season help thread up now. Please mention what u want to help with there.
You are one of those in point 5. If you did something else I missed, please feel free to mention it here. Have already apologized in advance for anything I missed.
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| Nemolito |
Posted on 11-04-2022 19:34
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3386
Joined: 20-04-2020
PCM$: 425.00
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1) quad: We're constantly asking for help in several threads and in the skype group.
2) sodt: Don't know if the can(not) say this or that was aimed at me, but where is it stated that certain people are not allowed to say certain stuff? As far as I know I said the opposite, but simply said a lot of suggestions are hard/time-consuming to implement, definitely when done by a very small group of people. I think you're saying the same.
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 20:12
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World Champion
Posts: 12200
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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It was mainly targeted the quotation you highlighted Yourself, and not targeted a specific individual.
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 11-04-2022 21:07
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Team Leader
Posts: 7406
Joined: 14-07-2015
PCM$: 599.00
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Completely of topic but what is the +stage concept, is in something you can use in normal campaign play.
Sorry for jumping in on important MG stuff, just had to ask. 
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 11-04-2022 22:24
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Tamijo wrote:
Completely of topic but what is the +stage concept, is in something you can use in normal campaign play.
Sorry for jumping in on important MG stuff, just had to ask.
+stage = Adding a MO stage to sprint stage races to try and stop the GC Leader Bug (the MO stage is the final stage, so doesn't count at all, just there to help PCM's broken AI)
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-12-2024 17:24
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Bot Agent
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 11-04-2022 22:59
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3301
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Tamijo wrote:
Completely of topic but what is the +stage concept, is in something you can use in normal campaign play.
Sorry for jumping in on important MG stuff, just had to ask.
+stage = Adding a MO stage to sprint stage races to try and stop the GC Leader Bug (the MO stage is the final stage, so doesn't count at all, just there to help PCM's broken AI)
I tested this and ran into the situation where the peloton didn't chase on the last sprint stage before the MT. I think that is probably fixable by adding two stages but haven't tested that. So I agree it fixable but need to be careful. It does not fix the fact lead outs are a handicap, which would be one more reason to test 22.
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 11-04-2022 23:07
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World Champion
Posts: 11406
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1120.00
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Cool to hear the "+stage" concept seems to work, thanks for the work testing Croatia  Nice to get some relevant information on the feasibility of one of the options before we're asked to cast a vote 
I'm as guilty as most here of not helping last off-season so I'm not trying to throw shade at people who didn't by saying this next bit - and also not criticising you SotD for putting it on the table! But...
If this is the final vote/when we get to the final vote it is so unfair to have PCM15 as an option as long as the situation is as Abhi described - that's a lot of work on a few people in an off season just to maintain the game "generation" (with regards to stages jerseys etc carrying over), so to expect them to do that when they have to do all the work that going pre-PCM16 entails would be awful. The situation would have to be different to go back to PCM15, but I worry that would mean asking people to make a big commitment a few months out which is unfair as well.
I don't have a horse in this race and I don't think I'll vote - I just want as many of the managers here to be happy and having fun and want to continue to play the game. Whichever game version allows people to have that is the one I want, regardless of how I would feel on the gameplay. If it's 15, 18, 20, 22... the best thing for MG is having as many of us invested and having fun, and I hope we can find that
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 11-04-2022 23:47
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3301
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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jandal7 wrote:
I don't have a horse in this race and I don't think I'll vote - I just want as many of the managers here to be happy and having fun and want to continue to play the game. Whichever game version allows people to have that is the one I want, regardless of how I would feel on the gameplay. If it's 15, 18, 20, 22... the best thing for MG is having as many of us invested and having fun, and I hope we can find that
Well put. I too didn't vote for the same reason.
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling |
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 12-04-2022 08:34
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Team Leader
Posts: 7406
Joined: 14-07-2015
PCM$: 599.00
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Thanks for explanation
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 12-04-2022 09:30
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9104
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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jandal7 wrote:
Cool to hear the "+stage" concept seems to work, thanks for the work testing Croatia Nice to get some relevant information on the feasibility of one of the options before we're asked to cast a vote
Testing was done by others tbh, so credits to them (redordead, Ulrich,...) and all the others that do loads of work for the game. I'm just the big mouth doing few support these days, still tying to support the game in its direction though.
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| tastasol |
Posted on 12-04-2022 10:16
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2904
Joined: 11-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Either stay with 20 or change to 22 for me. Don't think it's a good idea to roll back the game.
I'm sorry that I haven't been able to help more with the running of things the last seasons, but I hope that I can help more out again in the future.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 27-04-2022 22:53
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16451
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10538.70
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I know this isn't really the place, but since it's the most recent thread we have regarding changes:
I think we need to seriously consider advertising in other PCM communities for people to apply to MG. We've been walking a tightrope in terms of having enough managers for a while, and we're hemorrhaging more this season - some who are among the oldest and/or most active. It feels like a very dire situation if we want to keep 3 divisions (which is essential given the inflation issues). We need more managers, and I truly believe there are potential managers out there. They just aren't already here. In this era, they were drawn to other platforms and communities, rather than forums like Daily. I'm sure we can get some of them here for MG though, and they could very well end up being a new generation of active managers that reinvigorate the game.
Not to mention, the people who apply may be some of the people most interested in current PCM and cycling, and perhaps with the most time on their hands. They could become not just valuable managers, but really add to the workforce of MG as far as reporting. We've been very lucky to have a few extremely dedicated reporters essentially keeping the game afloat by themselves the last few months. But I think it's clear that's not sustainable (or fair to them) long term. As MG has progressed, it's user base has gotten older, busier, and generally less up to date with PCM. Inviting new members from other PCM communities could really help reverse that trend.
There are downsides of course. It feels better for own community to be organically self sustaining, and we may not be able to vet well who will stick around. It would feel a bit less like "ours." But those were already concerns, and we've been letting everyone in the last few years anyway. I don't think the CT team retention rate would be any worse if we got 10 new managers who weren't Daily members previously. And more importantly, I don't see a way around this. I wouldn't want to severely alter the game to appeal to newbies, but we should at least be opening up that door. Otherwise, I'm not sure how much life is left in Man Game, to be honest.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 27-04-2022 23:30
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3301
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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Agree recruiting new managers from outside daily makes sense and maybe essential. Don't think there is harm even if only 1 or 2 out of 5 stick.
I do think we need to be careful to assume the mangame can't survive on a smaller scale. 60 people is a lot for a fantasy game. While it would take some restructuring you could make it work with a lot less although no question there is advantages to more participants.
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
