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ICL - Changes Discussion Thread
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| Ripley |
Posted on 22-03-2021 19:43
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Classics Specialist
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Now that the season is underway I thought it would be a good time to open a thread to discuss potential changes to the ICL. Any ideas are welcome, we value everybody's opinions, from newcomers with their fresh eyes on the game to old farts and Ollfardhs who have been around since the beginning. If anybody's too shy to post out in the open, unsure if their point is valid, feel free to drop me a PM first.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 21:48
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 22-03-2021 20:15
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Small Tour Specialist
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more a question than a proposal...but, what's the point to have an U25 ranking in U23 races? Do they worth some extra points in year rankings?
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| Shonak |
Posted on 22-03-2021 20:21
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Tour de France Champion
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No points for U25 in U23 races attached
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| DaveTwoBob |
Posted on 22-03-2021 22:55
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Small Tour Specialist
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I wanted to say how much I appreciated the new bidding system for transfers. It enabled me to try and get top talent without missing out when I failed to land one of the big beasts.
I made extensive use of the list system which worked really well for me. I was able to invest time when I had some spare in creating my lists and they operated during transfers without me worrying that I would miss an opportunity if real life prevented me from following the action.
I would like to retain this system in future and would be interested to hear if any other managers used the list system and what their views were.
In addition even though it lead to me loosing Cav I welcome the wage restructuring to better reflect the scoring potential of the top riders.
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| Scatmaster111 |
Posted on 23-03-2021 02:42
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Domestique
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I thought the transfer system worked a treat, and I'm very glad that just about everything worked in LibreOffice just fine, with the only issue being the usual colour formatting issue that just seems to be a LibreOffice thing
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| OZrocker |
Posted on 23-03-2021 04:57
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Protected Rider
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DaveTwoBob wrote:
I wanted to say how much I appreciated the new bidding system for transfers. It enabled me to try and get top talent without missing out when I failed to land one of the big beasts.
I made extensive use of the list system which worked really well for me. I was able to invest time when I had some spare in creating my lists and they operated during transfers without me worrying that I would miss an opportunity if real life prevented me from following the action.
I would like to retain this system in future and would be interested to hear if any other managers used the list system and what their views were.
In addition even though it lead to me loosing Cav I welcome the wage restructuring to better reflect the scoring potential of the top riders.
I couldn't agree more. The list bidding was an excellent addition and making the top riders more expensive was something which the competition definitely needed.
Re: the youth ranking in U23 races, I'd suggest that reporters just don't bother posting that section in the future. There are no youth points for any classic races either, which is why they don't get included in the posted results.
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 23-03-2021 05:38
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Yeah, I also agree with the exclusion of the U25 ranking in U23 races - it's pointless since all riders are U25 anyway
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| Ripley |
Posted on 23-03-2021 11:04
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Classics Specialist
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The PCM result exporter throws out the U25 rankings along with everything else. Maybe the reportes can remember to remove them, but they are easy enough to ignore.
I'll throw in my fairly minor point about the points scale, which so far has remained unchanged. It boils down to finishing 20th in a World Tour stage race being worth 12 points seems a bit stingy, especially compared to 20 points you get from a WT 1-day race. Here's a comparison of the two with the current scale:
Spoiler | Position | WT GC | WT 1-day | | 1 | 275 | 220 | | 2 | 220 | 180 | | 3 | 185 | 150 | | 4 | 155 | 125 | | 5 | 130 | 100 | | 6 | 110 | 80 | | 7 | 90 | 70 | | 8 | 75 | 60 | | 9 | 60 | 55 | | 10 | 50 | 50 | | 11 | 45 | 46 | | 12 | 40 | 42 | | 13 | 35 | 38 | | 14 | 30 | 35 | | 15 | 26 | 32 | | 16 | 22 | 29 | | 17 | 18 | 26 | | 18 | 16 | 24 | | 19 | 14 | 22 | | 20 | 12 | 20 | | 21 | 10 | 18 | | 22 | 9 | 16 | | 23 | 8 | 14 | | 24 | 7 | 12 | | 25 | 6 | 11 | | 26 | 5 | 10 | | 27 | 4 | 9 | | 28 | 3 | 8 | | 29 | 2 | 7 | | 30 | 1 | 6 | | 31 | | 5 | | 32 | | 5 | | 33 | | 4 | | 34 | | 4 | | 35 | | 4 | | 36 | | 3 | | 37 | | 3 | | 38 | | 3 | | 39 | | 2 | | 40 | | 2 | | 41 | | 2 | | 42 | | 1 | | 43 | | 1 | | 44 | | 1 | | 45 | | 1 |
It also applies to all other races, though the discrepancy is smaller in CT races. I propose offering a few more points below the top 10 for GC results in stage races.
I also still have the feeling that we should reduce points from the KOM rankings outside Grand Tours because those are more random than the rest (GC/Green/White). There's also the idea to only reduce them for races without mountains, but that would mean two separate scales. Again, here's what we currently have for non-GT WT stage races:
Spoiler | Position | Green | Polka | White | | 1 | 110 | 110 | 55 | | 2 | 75 | 75 | 35 | | 3 | 50 | 50 | 24 | | 4 | 30 | 30 | 16 | | 5 | 20 | 20 | 8 | | 6 | 15 | 15 | 4 | | 7 | 10 | 10 | | | 8 | 5 | 5 | | | 9 | 3 | 3 | | | 10 | 2 | 2 | |
My basic idea would be to reduce Polka to White, but maybe something in between Green and White would be enough. Or maybe we should embrace the randomness?
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| Shonak |
Posted on 23-03-2021 11:15
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Tour de France Champion
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Ripley wrote:
The PCM result exporter throws out the U25 rankings along with everything else. Maybe the reportes can remember to remove them, but they are easy enough to ignore
I won't do that 
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Shonak |
Posted on 23-03-2021 11:16
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
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I am ok to reduce the polka dot scales completely to white but then again I think my riders never won one from the break in 6 years of ICL 
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 23-03-2021 11:31
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World Champion
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I think this game is pretty much perfect as it is.
Also, thank you for the mention.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| DarkWolf |
Posted on 23-03-2021 12:03
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Being new I don't have any propositions for the moment. I am getting my bearings around the game and try to get accustomed with all its features and mechanics. However, I do have a question. Do the countries that currently don't have any riders within the DB have a chance of producing one? For example, Honduras and Nicaragua that are in my team's focus region might produce a youngster or two when the scouting starts? I guess I could roughly call that a change in the DB. |
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| Scatmaster111 |
Posted on 23-03-2021 16:02
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Domestique
Posts: 409
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Ripley wrote:
I'll throw in my fairly minor point about the points scale, which so far has remained unchanged. It boils down to finishing 20th in a World Tour stage race being worth 12 points seems a bit stingy, especially compared to 20 points you get from a WT 1-day race.
It also applies to all other races, though the discrepancy is smaller in CT races. I propose offering a few more points below the top 10 for GC results in stage races.
...
I also still have the feeling that we should reduce points from the KOM rankings outside Grand Tours because those are more random than the rest (GC/Green/White). There's also the idea to only reduce them for races without mountains, but that would mean two separate scales.
My basic idea would be to reduce Polka to White, but maybe something in between Green and White would be enough. Or maybe we should embrace the randomness?
On the first point of the points scale of stage races compared to one-day races, I agree that I think this should be changed for future seasons. It's more than a bit odd that you get more points for winning a stage race than a one-day race, but then you get less points for 20th in a stage race than in a one-day race.
On the second point, I think KOM rankings should remain as they are, on par with the points classification, and we embrace the randomness. I'd imagine the potential for those points is what keeps some wildcard applicants going to the Grand Tours, and it would be a shame to diminish that.
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| Ripley |
Posted on 23-03-2021 17:27
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3341
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@DarkWolf: You don't have to worry about that, Bikex generates way more talents, new every season, for us to scout than end up in the db. The only certain numbers I can give you are: There were 49 Brits to find last season, I hired 4, Trans Cycling 2 and 2 ended as FAs (randomly, I guess, they are terrible and there were better riders around).
@Scatmaster: I excluded Grand Tours, I agree those jerseys and competitions are valuable. We could even exclude all mountainous stage races, because at least a climber should win those. I "discovered" this "problem" when Stannard won the KOM ranking in the Eneco Tour. He happened to escape on the only stage that offered KOM points and happened to take most - 110 points for that seemed a bit much.
@Ollfardh: You're welcome, I was very pleased with myself when I came up with that.
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| Shonak |
Posted on 24-03-2021 21:09
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
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Croatia14 wrote:
Shonak wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
but he sat up every time whle he definitely could've taken Oss to the line.
Having covered these cobbled races for 7 seasons now, I am incredibly annoyed by this AI behaviour. It makes no sense to me to sit up with 2-3 riders on your wheel and wait for the rest of the bunch to catch up.
Eventually we may discuss a switch of the PCM version I suppose although all in all, PCM15 is doing an okay job and looking at Mangame it can get much worse.
Yeah we should switch to PCM20, much better I tell you 
Arnt people complaining a lot about it? I am not following the discussion tbh
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 24-03-2021 21:27
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World Champion
Posts: 14562
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It would depend on how many reporters make the switch, but I agree with SHonak cobbles have been a joke, while other aspects are better compared to later versions.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 24-03-2021 22:00
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World Champion
Posts: 12986
Joined: 20-05-2009
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Shonak wrote:
Croatia14 wrote:
Shonak wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
but he sat up every time whle he definitely could've taken Oss to the line.
Having covered these cobbled races for 7 seasons now, I am incredibly annoyed by this AI behaviour. It makes no sense to me to sit up with 2-3 riders on your wheel and wait for the rest of the bunch to catch up.
Eventually we may discuss a switch of the PCM version I suppose although all in all, PCM15 is doing an okay job and looking at Mangame it can get much worse.
Yeah we should switch to PCM20, much better I tell you
Arnt people complaining a lot about it? I am not following the discussion tbh
From my view Cobble gameplay is pretty close to 10/10 on PCM 18/20 (17 it sucks btw), while a lot of other aspects are worse. Only issue I have with it is that Paris Roubaix ALWAYS ends in a sprint, so Matthew Hayman's win f.e. could never happen. I think it has to do with the last "real" cobble section being so far from the finish.
Gameplay could be better than MG though on other terrains, since ICL doesn't have inflation to the degree MG does (if at all).
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 24-03-2021 22:01
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2324
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don't know how it works with PCM20, but I'm used with 17 and it's almost the same farce...I remember that with pcm14 it was better
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-03-2021 22:40
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Tour de France Champion
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Cobbles AI is definitely one thing that PCM 18 or PCM 20 would be a surefire improvement on. However, my personal opinion is that it is not worth the trade-offs on other terrains.
That being said, I am not a manager relying on a top cobbles leader at the moment. I can understand the frustration of being in that position, which would make a change more promising.
Does ICL currently use MG's PCM 15 policy of making all cobbles 5 star? That could help some with forcing selection if not, though it wouldn't fix the attacking AI.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Ripley |
Posted on 26-03-2021 07:12
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3341
Joined: 25-11-2014
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How about a subject that should get the blood boiling: Should we bring back steals? We decided against them this season, but that doesn't mean they are gone for good.
For the newcomers: Before renewals you can place a limited amount of bids on any riders under contract. If a bid isn't countered during renewals, you get that rider. However, the current team doesn't need to match your offer, it can renew the rider for less. For example, somebody bid 2100 for Aru in 2019 and Ceramica held onto him for 1845 (which according to Bikex wasn't much more than he wanted anyway).
Usually young pot 7 riders are the biggest "nuisance" and attract outlandish bids. Bikex came up with a countermeasure, you can block a rider from steal bids which will only increase his wage demand by a little. If steals come back I very much recommend protecting any exciting talents.
Obviously, the steal system was never very popular and can cause frustration or even some hostility.
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