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Mafia X | u up? x
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 17-01-2020 20:50
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
jandal7 wrote:
We have more than enough, thanks guys! The more people the better of course, so I'd love to see more signups to potentially go to 4 mafia, so I'll leave this open for probably 2 days before getting into it 
That was a fast two days, i hope you all die horribly I'm rooting for the Werewolf!
Sorry 
Actually back.
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 17-01-2020 21:48
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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The let's give him a very warm welcome.
Lynch Waghlon
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 17-01-2020 21:50
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3634
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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I would again be for the revealing of roles, the mafia already knows who each other are, the townies don't, confirming townies to give less possible wrong lynch options is more value than we normally get out of the roles when we don't claim and I don't really want another game of sitting around waiting for someone to find something, I'd rather see us be more proactive in whittling down the possibilities of ho could be mafia.
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| kandesbunzler26 |
Posted on 17-01-2020 22:31
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1119
Joined: 07-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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trekbmc wrote:
Otherwise, I'd like to make the statement that always ends up being redundant every game that we really need to lynch somebody each day. Since the mafia is usually going to kill the least suspicious players, we often don't gain a ton of info from their kill and just lose a good player, while if we're at least lynching we at least force people to post (giving us more to analyse) and even if we fail to lynch mafia we remove suspicious players.
I'm not sure lynching mostly at random is a good idea. In Mafia VIII we lynched a mafia player the first day (mostly by chance to be honest), drew the wrong conclusions from it and never got near the other two mafias for the rest of the game. Mafia IX went even worse for the town, when only townies were lynched (once deliberately putting up with lynching someone most players thought was pro-town).
I tend more to the idea TMM uttered back then of not lynching in the first days, basically giving the power roles of the town (especially the detective and the tracker) more time to get some infomation. Particularly the detective basically has to double-check each player, as he could get both a wrong pro-town (for the godfather) or a wrong pro-mafia (because of the framer). Randomly lynching will result in quickly reducing the pro-town faction while simultaneously cutting the amount of times the pro-town power roles who could find the mafia can learn something about what's going on. Doesn't sound too good to me. On the other hand we're at a 12-3 ratio at the moment, having some reserves of plain townies to hide the power roles and buy us some time to get them being of use. |
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| knockout |
Posted on 17-01-2020 23:43
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 400.00
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Spoiler Bikex, i remember you. Tomorrow 
jseadog1 wrote:
Would also like to point out that we should not all just let knockout take the 'leader' role again and listen to everything he says.
ryant wrote:
I also want everyone to really take part in the discussion, over reliance on one person has really hurt town in the past (either waiting for their thoughts or focusing on one person to lynch a day) and it allows mafia to really hide among popular narratives that are beneficial to them.
I second these two posts. We need a group of strong voices not afraid to question each other's thoughts. I believe i can be one of them but id rather see others stepping up than me having to slow down too much to not slide into a 'leader role'
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 18-01-2020 01:09
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2324
Joined: 07-07-2016
PCM$: 17374.00
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I think that (obviously if we have no a good track) to lynch none in first day can be a good idea, at least we have no chance to kill a powerful role that can say us something in the future.
In first day I always lynched a random name that figured out to be wrong (except when I was mafia that I sacrificed a condamned mafia member to clean my name)...so at the moment I remain neutral
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 18-01-2020 08:36
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Team Leader
Posts: 7366
Joined: 11-07-2014
PCM$: 700.00
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@Kandesbunzler - I understand your point, but I'd like to also mention the inverse that we've rarely had any game where our investigative roles have actually succeeded in finding that much valuable information and I don't really feel like being stuck in the position where we are just sitting there waiting for the detective (and tracker I guess), to find information and out themselves as the mafia picks us off.
However, I feel like the issue with this situation is that it kinda assumes that the mafia just kills randomly or spitefully. However, the mafia are realistically just going to kill a bunch of our most trustworthy players, giving us no real information and forcing the detective to make guesses off also very little information. Whereas if we are actively lynching players, not only are we either taking out mafia, or in the worst case removing the most suspicious players to remove a distraction, we are also giving everybody, including the detective, a chance to see everybody play, form opinions and try to figure out who the mafia is.
Mafia is a game about information, and the more you force the mafia (And well, everybody) to talk, make votes and interact with other players, the more information we have to make decisions. In Mafia VII we only had 8 pages total, maybe 6 if we're generous of actual discussion and at the final pivotal 50/50 it was simply impossible to tell who the mafia is because there was nothing to go on. Lynching forces the mafia (and townspeople too) to take sides, engage in discussion and speak, allowing everybody to attempt to read other people and gauge who they are suspicious of, when the game is almost always going to come down to a tough decision at some point, having more information to reference could really be our saving grace.
Also, a nice benefit of the town regularly lynching is that a detective who is playing very well can at least attempt to nudge the town towards a suspicious player without literally having to out themselves initially.
"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
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| knockout |
Posted on 18-01-2020 14:23
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 400.00
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Bikex wrote:
So in my opinion a massclaim would clearly be a big mistake. I'm not sure why you'd even suggest that, knockout. Interested to hear what your thoughts behind that are.
I had two main intentions behind that post:
1) I wanted to start the conversation. The last two games we more or less randomly voted for members that hadnt posted yet to get the game started. While that lead to a more active start than in most past games, it lead to multiple guys just making a quick random vote before disappearing again for some time without contributing or changing their vote. I thought a question like this could open a discussion that leads to a tiny bit less random votes on (early-mid) day 1.
2) Last season the continuing calls for claims lead to an "atrocious discussion" as Croatia calls it and distracted from analyzing the suspects play. By moving the discussion right to the start of the game i hope that it wont poison the end of day game as much as last time around - hopefully leading to better results.
Now to my response whether i would support a massclaim?
In this setup there is imo no wrong answer and i wouldnt condemn anybody for picking the 'wrong side'(pro/contra massclaim). When i picked the roles last game as the host I changed them quite a few times because an early massclaim would have been too powerful for the town in the setup i originally wanted to do and i think it would have been a good decision in the 12 player game Mafia IX. With two additional normal townies, a massclaim is weaker this time.
If we do a massclaim I would propably have suggested that we only claim whether we have a power role or not instead of the exact role on day 1. That way we have either 1. four confirmed townies if the mafia all claim normal townies, the doctor has still a chance to make a save in one of the first nights or that the mafia kills the politician which is basically just a normal townie anyway so we keep all important power roles alive for one more day. or 2. one or more claim power roles then we know how many mafia members are in the group of normal townies and how many are in the group of mafia members which could help us a lot in figuring out mafia members and figure stuff out from there.
( I would not want speculation which option the mafia would take because i would not help the mafia to avoid mistakes in claiming roles)
A massclaim would surely lead to us losing the power roles rather quickly however it massively increases the chances that find the first mafia member early (depending on what the the mafia does e.g. 3/10 instead 3/14 (30% instead of 21% by random choice on day 1 if they do all claim town). The question is how valuable the power roles are in a setup with framer and godfather as not a single evaluation result can be trusted blindly and only last game we saw a tracker finding a result that he reads wrong which massively harmed the town. I think that makes both detective and tracker not as valuable as most players seem to think and the politician has basically no power role either so only the loss of the doctor would really hurt massively.
That's why i would tend slightly towards a massclaim but i'm not opposed to keeping EVERYONES role secret for now either in the hope that we can have 1-2 of doctor/detective/tracker survive till the late game or pull some game changing night action out of the hat before that. In the end it comes down towards the question: How valuable are the power roles in this game?
However, i want the decision done in the first half of this game day so that it doesnt distract from the further play anymore unlike last game and I hope that we dont get as many "I'm just a normal townie so my death doesnt matter" claims as the game rolls along if we decide against that.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 18-01-2020 14:54
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2324
Joined: 07-07-2016
PCM$: 17374.00
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If the doctor can't save himself a mass claim put mafia in good position to not fail any nightkill
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 18-01-2020 14:58
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2324
Joined: 07-07-2016
PCM$: 17374.00
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If you claim just to have a power role can be an idea, but maybe open to speculation from mafia...
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 17:16
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| quadsas |
Posted on 18-01-2020 15:27
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Claiming a power role and not posting results is almost useless, even if you find nothing it is valuable information (detective and tracker)
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| knockout |
Posted on 18-01-2020 16:38
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 400.00
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quadsas wrote:
Claiming a power role and not posting results is almost useless, even if you find nothing it is valuable information (detective and tracker)
Well they don't have information yet so claiming a power role for now is enough to make them a confirmed protown player if no mafia players claims power role and they can post their information later once they have any.
Also they could focus their investigations on the guys that havent claimed a power role giving them a higher chance to find sth in the first night. This would also make the trackers result more reliable as he does not have to worry about announcing the doctor or detective to the town.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| ryant |
Posted on 18-01-2020 17:02
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2322
Joined: 15-08-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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The only role I'd want to claim early if at all is the politician, they are probably the most dispensable role early game compared to the other power roles, think I've said before that after 2-3 days the others should really come out then when they have a little more information to share.
Im also lynching sammyt93, I normally have a blind spot for them and putting a lynch vote on him should make him post a little more beyond that first post which does at first glance look like solid logic.
 John St Ledger in Team Bunzl-Centrica and Team U25Red Bull Driver in RFactor
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 18-01-2020 17:39
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3634
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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knockout wrote:
quadsas wrote:
Claiming a power role and not posting results is almost useless, even if you find nothing it is valuable information (detective and tracker)
Well they don't have information yet so claiming a power role for now is enough to make them a confirmed protown player if no mafia players claims power role and they can post their information later once they have any.
Also they could focus their investigations on the guys that havent claimed a power role giving them a higher chance to find sth in the first night. This would also make the trackers result more reliable as he does not have to worry about announcing the doctor or detective to the town.
I like your logic on claiming a power role instead of claiming the specific role, not giving the mafia the knowledge of which of the 4 power roles is which (assuming no counter claim) means the order they get taken out in will be random, rather than allowing them to target the power roles in the order of what they believe to be strongest role to weakest role.
Correct me if I'm being an idiot, but isn't the politician the best end game role the town has available in this game?
I know the doctor cannot protect themselves but can they protect the same person continuously? If so then the only 1 role claims makes some sense but overall I don't like the idea as it seems to me it would create 1 person that the town would look towards to drive the discussion which is what Jseadog said (and knockout agreed) that we don't want.
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 18-01-2020 17:41
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3634
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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ryant wrote:
The only role I'd want to claim early if at all is the politician, they are probably the most dispensable role early game compared to the other power roles, think I've said before that after 2-3 days the others should really come out then when they have a little more information to share.
Im also lynching sammyt93, I normally have a blind spot for them and putting a lynch vote on him should make him post a little more beyond that first post which does at first glance look like solid logic.
I've changed my avatar since last game, hopefully having a more colourful one helps alleviate that issue for you a bit in this one.
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| knockout |
Posted on 18-01-2020 18:24
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 400.00
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sammyt93 wrote:
Correct me if I'm being an idiot, but isn't the politician the best end game role the town has available in this game?
I know the doctor cannot protect themselves but can they protect the same person continuously? If so then the only 1 role claims makes some sense but overall I don't like the idea as it seems to me it would create 1 person that the town would look towards to drive the discussion which is what Jseadog said (and knockout agreed) that we don't want.
The doctor can protect the same person continiously but the mafia could use their strongman to kill the person anyway so i dont really like a one person claim. id say either everyone or none.
The mafia wins, when there are equal members of the anti-town and pro-town. This win condition removes most of the power of the politician in an endgame imo.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 18-01-2020 18:34
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3634
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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knockout wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
Correct me if I'm being an idiot, but isn't the politician the best end game role the town has available in this game?
I know the doctor cannot protect themselves but can they protect the same person continuously? If so then the only 1 role claims makes some sense but overall I don't like the idea as it seems to me it would create 1 person that the town would look towards to drive the discussion which is what Jseadog said (and knockout agreed) that we don't want.
The doctor can protect the same person continiously but the mafia could use their strongman to kill the person anyway so i dont really like a one person claim. id say either everyone or none.
The mafia wins, when there are equal members of the anti-town and pro-town. This win condition removes most of the power of the politician in an endgame imo.
The town could force it so there is 1 more town then mafia during the day. Then they can deliberately tie the vote so the politicians power wins the game. I know it's fairly unlikely the politician would be in position to do that i.e. alive that late in the game, but it isn't out of the realms of possibility, it would just need to be played correctly.
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| knockout |
Posted on 18-01-2020 18:52
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 400.00
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kandesbunzler26 wrote:
I'm not sure lynching mostly at random is a good idea. In Mafia VIII we lynched a mafia player the first day (mostly by chance to be honest), drew the wrong conclusions from it and never got near the other two mafias for the rest of the game. Mafia IX went even worse for the town, when only townies were lynched (once deliberately putting up with lynching someone most players thought was pro-town).
I tend more to the idea TMM uttered back then of not lynching in the first days, basically giving the power roles of the town (especially the detective and the tracker) more time to get some infomation. Particularly the detective basically has to double-check each player, as he could get both a wrong pro-town (for the godfather) or a wrong pro-mafia (because of the framer). Randomly lynching will result in quickly reducing the pro-town faction while simultaneously cutting the amount of times the pro-town power roles who could find the mafia can learn something about what's going on. Doesn't sound too good to me. On the other hand we're at a 12-3 ratio at the moment, having some reserves of plain townies to hide the power roles and buy us some time to get them being of use.
How long do you expect that we have to wait until the detective/tracker find sth that they should tell us?
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| knockout |
Posted on 18-01-2020 19:00
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 400.00
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sammyt93 wrote:
knockout wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
Correct me if I'm being an idiot, but isn't the politician the best end game role the town has available in this game?
I know the doctor cannot protect themselves but can they protect the same person continuously? If so then the only 1 role claims makes some sense but overall I don't like the idea as it seems to me it would create 1 person that the town would look towards to drive the discussion which is what Jseadog said (and knockout agreed) that we don't want.
The doctor can protect the same person continiously but the mafia could use their strongman to kill the person anyway so i dont really like a one person claim. id say either everyone or none.
The mafia wins, when there are equal members of the anti-town and pro-town. This win condition removes most of the power of the politician in an endgame imo.
The town could force it so there is 1 more town then mafia during the day. Then they can deliberately tie the vote so the politicians power wins the game. I know it's fairly unlikely the politician would be in position to do that i.e. alive that late in the game, but it isn't out of the realms of possibility, it would just need to be played correctly.
But then you'd need two confirmed townies because if a mafia member is the one that hasnt voted for either he could hammer the innocent one. And in that case the politician wouldnt be needed. And the politician might still not know who is mafia at that point.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 18-01-2020 19:12
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3634
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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knockout wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
knockout wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
Correct me if I'm being an idiot, but isn't the politician the best end game role the town has available in this game?
I know the doctor cannot protect themselves but can they protect the same person continuously? If so then the only 1 role claims makes some sense but overall I don't like the idea as it seems to me it would create 1 person that the town would look towards to drive the discussion which is what Jseadog said (and knockout agreed) that we don't want.
The doctor can protect the same person continiously but the mafia could use their strongman to kill the person anyway so i dont really like a one person claim. id say either everyone or none.
The mafia wins, when there are equal members of the anti-town and pro-town. This win condition removes most of the power of the politician in an endgame imo.
The town could force it so there is 1 more town then mafia during the day. Then they can deliberately tie the vote so the politicians power wins the game. I know it's fairly unlikely the politician would be in position to do that i.e. alive that late in the game, but it isn't out of the realms of possibility, it would just need to be played correctly.
But then you'd need two confirmed townies because if a mafia member is the one that hasnt voted for either he could hammer the innocent one. And in that case the politician wouldnt be needed. And the politician might still not know who is mafia at that point.
Fair point, I'm going to stop there as any reply I can think of making has flaws that would only help the mafia if pointed out.
Hopefully as a town we can generate enough discussion to find them before it comes to a decision like that.
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