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Suggestions for the 2019 Season
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 20-07-2019 22:14
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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I'd agree with those saying we should change to PCM18.
PCM15 has done really well for the game, the past few season have been good fun. But, especially with the removal of crashes, it's a lot more predictable and less unique. We're seeing similar results and actions each season and it's making the game a bit easier to manage. I know this has ended up benefiting my team, knowing certain riders on my team will perform above thier stats.
Switching it up to 18 could give the game a kick of life i really think it needs. In terms of challenging managers, which in turn i think would boost manager interaction and involvement overall.
My main Con's to this are: Stages - What options do we have calendar wise? Crashes - I was against their removal having done the stats work way back when, in a new game are they less damaging and could they bring back a little spice i feel has lacked this year?
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Also, blah blah, don't change FA's up without changing another FA down to compensate, blah blah, same old same old inflation comment made for the last few seasons, blah blah, same comments on money only flowing up etc etc
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| SotD |
Posted on 20-07-2019 22:19
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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Guessing might be fun for some, not for others.
For me there’s plenty of guessing, how riders will perform, who they will meet etc. I can live with crashes, implementing daily/race form etc. too, as those things can be used tactically. Changing a game from 1 day to the next can’t. It just randomly favors some, and not others.
The info is needed for all, otherwise the info is for just some (organizors), so while I agree that I don’t need the ratios as such, I have a hard time accepting that 2-5 of my rivals know them, but not me.
When you, like me, plan talents ahead for years, it can have a very negative affect if games change throughout. Especially if the notice is short. I don’t care how many seasons in a row it is discussed, because it has been discussed every single season I have played. And discussion is fine. But there is a massive difference between discussing and briefing/orientating.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 22:17
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| whitejersey |
Posted on 20-07-2019 22:32
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2905
Joined: 07-08-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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I personally think that the switch has been insuniated a bit since the last year. What I will say is that I can somewhat understand your point SotD, however I think that making the swap to 18 would be better. And from the testing that I have done with various db's on 18(MG db included) I haven't seen anything that wasn't happening already. It might throw a spanner in the works for some people, I think that it's fine that that we add some change to what's going on.
Also training specific riders obviously is important and probably would be jeopardized a bit for some people but at the base level it will still be the same. I am very muchin favour of making the switch. Also if you were expecting the game to stay on 15 forever I feel like your plans would have been a bit too rigid, personally I find having to adapt one of the more fun parts of MG.
In terms of stages there is a good amount that has been made and it should be fairly straight forward converting older stages from what I have seen discussed.
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| Sykkel_Freak |
Posted on 20-07-2019 23:13
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2073
Joined: 11-07-2010
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As far as I’m aware, the game has not usually utilized the same version of PCM for as many seasons as has been the case with PCM15. And there are many good reasons for why we should move onto a new version on a regular basis. It helps maintain a decent pool of possible reporters, database conversion is less work when done regularly between games, and it of course makes it possible for the game to make use of improved gameplay.
For the above reasons, I actually don’t think planning ahead for many seasons from a viewpoint that the game will stay the same is something managers can expect to be able to do. On the contrary, I would argue that a new game is something one always should consider and take into account when planning ahead.
I do not have an opinion on whether PCM18 is better suited to MG than PCM15, but I do think one transfer window (even on short notice) is sufficient to make any necessary adjustments to a squad.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 20-07-2019 23:22
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World Champion
Posts: 11395
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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I agree a lot with Croatia and TMM, in my eyes the dynamism of 18 itself as well as the fact of change will do wonders for the game as well as the new AI being plain better. Although I can somewhat sympathise with those whose talent planning may be ever so slightly less effective now, the stats haven’t fundamentally changed. The HI/MO system is in fact the same as PCM15 not the “new” 16-17 one, even if ACC and RES have slightly less importance in general they still do have a large affect in their own department of the race as well as in general which is how we think of them anyway. It’s not like 14>15 where RES went from broken to the most major tertiary- the stats all have the same effects and similar importance to PCM15. I think the major change for the riders will be heir function with the AI rather than how good they are as riders if you see what I mean (not worded perfectly as of course some will be more useful now due to better AI and will perform to their full potential and vice versa for some of course). But that’s just fun, isn’t it? 
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 20-07-2019 23:41
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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Up until the 2016 season, we moved on every year. There were always subtle adjustments in gameplay, but it was never an issue. As far as I recall, the main reason we halted at 15 was 16's elimination of the mountain/hill ratio, which would cause trouble for the way the DB and race planning had been configured.
The fact that we're even debating this makes me believe that nobody seems to think that change would end up being gamebreaking after all, or would end up working in a similar way. Therefore, I have no problem with moving on to 18 as long as thorough testing is done and results are shared with all managers pre transfers.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 20-07-2019 23:43
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Also, blah blah, don't change FA's up without changing another FA down to compensate, blah blah, same old same old inflation comment made for the last few seasons, blah blah, same comments on money only flowing up etc etc
^
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 21-07-2019 01:03
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3999
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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My biggest question is why switch to only PCM18? I can understand if there is concern about updates and such on PCM19 but we are still several months away from starting the next MG season.
Obviously the biggest concern about the switch overall is the adjustment to riders, especially in the MO/HI category, however the same changes will affect everyone, it isn't like some teams won't be affected by it.
Obviously people will need to test things out, so we can see how the game runs, obviously stage makers will need to get to work as I'm sure a lot of that part of the game will need to be updated for the MG. I'd be happy to test things out, I did some of that with 18 at the beginning of the season. Would even like to consider putting together a little off-season competition perhaps using national teams (so I don't have to worry about getting jerseys and such right).
AZTECA - NBCSN  |
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 21-07-2019 03:39
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 11677
Joined: 27-07-2015
PCM$: 1861.50
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Took my time to go through the comments and here's my two cents...
I've played PCM18 with a control team for quite some time now as part of the Story Game that I run on this forum itself. If you are interested in how the PCM 18 dynamics work, maybe you can check that out; DB, startlists, results, everything is available (not trying to promote that here, sorry if it seems so, just trying to help everyone).
Now coming to the salient points of PCM 18...
Crashes - There seems to be more retirements arising directly out of crashes than ever before. I've played PCMs 14, 15, 16 and 18 and I don't recall so many retirements before. Whether crashes should be kept or not is perhaps a discussion to be had, keeping this in mind.
MO/HI ratio - I'm not 100% sure whether there is a proportionate in-game effect, but changing a the MO/HIL ratio of PCM stages using the editor definitely changes the pre-stage 'favourites' list that PCM generates. Which shows that the broken slider from PCM 17 has been looked into, and Cyanide never bothered telling anybody. I know a broken MO/HIL would've been a major down-vote for a switch to PCM 18.
Variants - Besides PCM 18 variants, PCM 18 can run PCM 17 variants without any modification. There is a variant pack available on this forum itself. Older stages need to be converted to PCM 18 format.
General Gameplay - There is not much change in the overall gameplay. Sagan still dominates on the cobbles and Froome still dominates TDF. GC riders still have an advantage in longer TTs at the end of a long stage race, for some weird reason which PCM can't seem to get right. The riders you expect to be up competing for the GC, still do. I have seen very few consistent freak results in all my time playing it. Off course, there are certain specific aspects which keep repeating, but it is not much different to how a real life race scenario would pan out.
I'll post any other points if they come to my mind...
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 21-07-2019 08:57
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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SotD wrote:
When you, like me, plan talents ahead for years, it can have a very negative affect if games change throughout. Especially if the notice is short. I don’t care how many seasons in a row it is discussed, because it has been discussed every single season I have played. And discussion is fine. But there is a massive difference between discussing and briefing/orientating.
This is very much invalid for me, because if you plan long term you have to take a game change into account. That has always been part of the man game, and will happen all day long if you plan a talent for the next 10 years in mg.
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 21-07-2019 09:11
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Team Leader
Posts: 7406
Joined: 14-07-2015
PCM$: 599.00
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Development always scare.
Not that I care much but if You keep playing on 2015 forever that is conservatism at its worst.
2018 is simply a lot better than 2015, reports will be more interesting because it feels more "right" compared to what you watch on TV. I my mind that is more important than if XX riders get a small bonus over YY rider, for God sake it is just for fun.
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 21-07-2019 10:32
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3999
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Croatia14 wrote:
SotD wrote:
When you, like me, plan talents ahead for years, it can have a very negative affect if games change throughout. Especially if the notice is short. I don’t care how many seasons in a row it is discussed, because it has been discussed every single season I have played. And discussion is fine. But there is a massive difference between discussing and briefing/orientating.
This is very much invalid for me, because if you plan long term you have to take a game change into account. That has always been part of the man game, and will happen all day long if you plan a talent for the next 10 years in mg.
This is very true, I don't recall what PCMs were used prior to stopping on 15, but think it moved on to the next fairly consistently. And as for long term planning, you and everyone else suffer from the same changes, I highly doubt anyone has been sitting back the last few seasons going, "I'll do this and then get a jump on everyone when we switch to PCM16/17/18/19".
Maybe we add an adjustment phase where people can move a couple stat points on their riders (only moving from a higher statpoint to a lower statpoint) to help as we transition into a new version that fundamentally changes how a few of the game mechanics work.
Do what we need to make it work, but we need to move on.
AZTECA - NBCSN |
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| knockout |
Posted on 21-07-2019 10:52
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
PCM$: 400.00
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SotD wrote:
When you, like me, plan talents ahead for years, it can have a very negative affect if games change throughout. Especially if the notice is short. I don’t care how many seasons in a row it is discussed, because it has been discussed every single season I have played. And discussion is fine. But there is a massive difference between discussing and briefing/orientating.
Interestingly the huge changes to the overall formula you've pushed for last season without any notice whatsoever screwed my plans much more than any change to another pcm would do
I'm fine with the change to pcm18 if those who have it and did some testing with the mg db think its better. I dont have 15 or 18 or any game in between so i have to trust those who have to have a good idea of the limitation of the games.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 21-07-2019 11:03
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Team Leader
Posts: 6795
Joined: 21-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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As far as I remember the only reason we stopped changing editions at PCM15 was the Hi/Mtn rate problems. Going by above comments that seems t be resolved in PCM18 so I can't really see a legit argument for staying on the old version.
Up to PCM15 editions changed every season and that should IMO be part of long-term planning.
Sometimes riders doesn't perform like you had hoped one - that goes in real life as well. Seasonal fluctuations should always be part of the planning and really is just part of the game. Take Lo Cicero in bast mode in my first PCT season only to be a faint shadow of his former self the following season - even with the same game...
Moving to '18 will likely bring a larger base of potential reporters thus boosting the game where it's most vulnerable.
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| roturn |
Posted on 21-07-2019 11:09
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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From my point of view and first tests the results from PCM15 and PCM18 will be very comparable in most cases.
There won`t be any riders that should stat wise be good and now suck suddenly. At least not more as the usual PCM randomness, which also took place in PCM15.
Riders with good main stats will also be the top favourites in PCM18.
Riders with very similar or equal main stats are then seperated by backup stats. So obviously riders with high acc and res or flat will be stronger than riders without those.
So main stat most important, backup stat then seperates them further. Nothing surprising really.
Due to better AI a big change is that less races will end the same way as PCM15 was known for. Big group until 5km to go, attack, attack success and then sprint of that small group or in other cases hill peloton sprint with groups only appearing on final km strength wise.
In PCM18 selection can come a lot earlier and smaller groups make it to finish. BUT groups that have been dropped often make a comeback as they continue to work! Big difference to PCM15, where strong attacks rarely are caught again. So it was often, first attack wins.
PCM18 has a lot more mixing in the final 1-2km on mountain stages for example. If a rider missed the attack but still has energy, he can catch up and pass riders that attacked but are not as strong and suffer in the end. This obviously makes the pure diesel climbers a bit more worthy.
That said, riders with same mountain stat and better backup stats (res/acc) obviously still are better normally.
So stat wise PCM15 and PCM18 are very similar. Main stat first -> Backup to make the difference then.
But AI wise PCM18 is just soooo much better making it a lot more realistic and less repeatable with the first/second attack win way PCM15 often had.
Reporters pretty sure know this as most hill races or most mountain races ended in the very same way again and again. |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 21-07-2019 11:16
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3999
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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So I'm still curious as to why we are more looking at 18 than 19. Is there something I'm missing about 19 (other than it being very new still)? We have several months before the start of next season, and I can't imagine the engine as an overall tool for us is worse than 18.
AZTECA - NBCSN |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 21-07-2019 11:24
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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Kentaurus wrote:
So I'm still curious as to why we are more looking at 18 than 19. Is there something I'm missing about 19 (other than it being very new still)? We have several months before the start of next season, and I can't imagine the engine as an overall tool for us is worse than 18.
We just don't know how good 19 is yet, and also a lot of potential reporters don't have PCM19. From what I've heard, it's not really any different to 18, but not sure about this. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 21-07-2019 11:24
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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Kentaurus wrote:
So I'm still curious as to why we are more looking at 18 than 19. Is there something I'm missing about 19 (other than it being very new still)? We have several months before the start of next season, and I can't imagine the engine as an overall tool for us is worse than 18.
PCM19 is basically PCM18 with a stat update.
As far as I see it, there is nothing changed for single race mode and only for career mode. AI apparently the very same.
And it`s still bugged here and there, while PCM18 has the final patch and this way we know what we can expect. |
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| whitejersey |
Posted on 21-07-2019 11:25
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2905
Joined: 07-08-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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roturn wrote:
Kentaurus wrote:
So I'm still curious as to why we are more looking at 18 than 19. Is there something I'm missing about 19 (other than it being very new still)? We have several months before the start of next season, and I can't imagine the engine as an overall tool for us is worse than 18.
PCM19 is basically PCM18 with a stat update.
As far as I see it, there is nothing changed for single race mode and only for career mode. AI apparently the very same.
And it`s still bugged here and there, while PCM18 has the final patch and this way we know what we can expect.
Also more people own PCM18 I guess which makes it easier for races to be reported.
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| Aquarius97 |
Posted on 21-07-2019 11:30
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4191
Joined: 13-09-2015
PCM$: 300.00
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Kentaurus wrote:
So I'm still curious as to why we are more looking at 18 than 19. Is there something I'm missing about 19 (other than it being very new still)? We have several months before the start of next season, and I can't imagine the engine as an overall tool for us is worse than 18.
Is the exact same IA, the only change is that now profile images really suck in-game
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
