Personally I don't think 'Skyfall' will happen. No doubts the recent headlines add yet more evidence to the general populace pulling the mystique away from Sky ridiculous squeaky clean image attempts. They are clearly as dodgy (certainly worse for their preachy BS) as pretty much all top sports teams/athletes - any idiot can see that. The justification for wiggins level the playing field that is defo a dopers golden excuse isn't it? But then that is sports stars reason for TUE's I suppose as well.
As for whether they actually will be caught doing anything that actually results in a Armstrong or even Contador/Valverde type of stripping of titles ... I have my doubts. As to whether the team will cease to exist in the near future, I also have my doubts. I do ask myself if they strip Wiggins 2012 Tour do they award title to Froome or Nibali or no-one?
The latest from Cookson on cyclingnews is pretty depressing .. they didn't break the rules so therefore nothing to see here sort of head in the sand stuff is pretty disappointing. Why can he not say- this was wrong, an oversight and we think must not let the TUE system be abused like this again? Like what we are hearing from a lot of ex-pros?
Smowz wrote:
I do ask myself if they strip Wiggins 2012 Tour do they award title to Froome or Nibali or no-one?
Jurgen Van Den Broeck obviously, the clean winner of that Tour
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant." [PT] Xero Racing
French TV showed a report on dope doctor Bernard Sainz, who has worked (according to the show) with riders like Mondory, Coppel and more. It's a few months old already. (link below, French only)
Would maybe also explain Coppel's sudden retirement.
Smowz wrote:
Personally I don't think 'Skyfall' will happen. No doubts the recent headlines add yet more evidence to the general populace pulling the mystique away from Sky ridiculous squeaky clean image attempts. They are clearly as dodgy (certainly worse for their preachy BS) as pretty much all top sports teams/athletes - any idiot can see that. The justification for wiggins level the playing field that is defo a dopers golden excuse isn't it? But then that is sports stars reason for TUE's I suppose as well.
As for whether they actually will be caught doing anything that actually results in a Armstrong or even Contador/Valverde type of stripping of titles ... I have my doubts. As to whether the team will cease to exist in the near future, I also have my doubts. I do ask myself if they strip Wiggins 2012 Tour do they award title to Froome or Nibali or no-one?
The latest from Cookson on cyclingnews is pretty depressing .. they didn't break the rules so therefore nothing to see here sort of head in the sand stuff is pretty disappointing. Why can he not say- this was wrong, an oversight and we think must not let the TUE system be abused like this again? Like what we are hearing from a lot of ex-pros?
I agree with much of what you say. However, I do think Sky are being judged harshly as they made a rod for their own back by saying how clean they were going to be. In effect they have done exactly what every other team does, the only problem was, as you say, they went out of their way to say they would never do that and then obviously have. Any investigation into TUEs needs to be levelled at the sport as a whole and not one particular rider/team who have been singled out by an illegal hacking group.
Wiggins won't be stripped of any titles as nothing illegal has been done and there is currently no evidence of anything more then the abuse of the TUE system. I don't think you can be stripped of your titles for following the rules, even if you do bend them. If you strip the title from Wiggins you'd have to strip titles from every race winner who has used TUEs. Obviously that may change if further evidence is uncovered in the future.
The future of Sky may be slightly less certain. Enough negative publicity could turn any sponsor away from a sport. However, the strength of British Cycling and it's popularity at the moment would probably mean there would be equally large companies willing to step in if Sky step out.
Finally, I agree that Cookson needs to come out and say "we've cocked the TUE system up. We're going to change the rules and ensure this doesn't happen again". I've said from the start that you can't blame athletes for bending the rules to their advantage if the system allows them to. The problem is the system.
At the same time how do you change the system? How do you prove someone doesn't need TUEs unless every team has a WADA approved doctor for the whole season. Most team doctors will happily confirm a rider has a condition if it means they can take certain substances because of it.
As you say, a lot of ex-pros are speaking out as they are no longer in the firing line. Most current pros have remained very silent as 99% of them also use the TUE system.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
TUEs are just a part of the problem that SKY had with doping violations in recent years and weeks.
Not that i think you would admit anything bad going there even if they would stuff it under your nose, but hey, we can try. Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 10-10-2016 12:05
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
TUEs are just a part of the problem that SKY had with doping violations in recent years and weeks.
Not that i think you would admit anything bad going there even if they would stuff it under your nose, but hey, we can try.
If proof was provided I would happily accept it. But that's the point, there is no proof at this time.
I've accepted that the TUE system has been abused, by all teams, not just Sky. But what lots of people don't seem willing to accept is that that is not a doping violation. Nothing illegal has been done.
It's all well and good saying I won't accept anything bad against Sky. I will happily accept it if anything is ever proven in the future. But you just as equally are trying to make out something illegal has been done based on some TUE's being released by an illegal hacking group. It works both ways
People keep saying "Sky are obviously on drugs because Lance was on drugs". If you're going to accuse any successful team/rider of cheating based on the past then why bother watching the sport. Sky need to be judged on their own merits. At this point those merits are that the TUE system has been abused, by every cycling team not just Sky, but nothing illegal has been done to date.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
Old news - probably missed it being posted while I was away, so apologies if I'm just reposting - but the first three stages of the Giro were revealed about a month ago and I can't see any mention of them anywhere so thought I would put the profiles in here:
Pretty meh way to start the 100th edition if you ask me, highly reminiscent of the 100th Tour, with a start in Sardinia with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island, mirroring a start in Corsica with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island. That said, hard to predict who will be in pink after those three stages as there's a bit of rolling terrain around to make life a little difficult for the sprinters.
Elsewhere in the Giro, Mortirolo-Umbrail-Stelvio is very much on the cards. Even if the rest of the route doesn't seem to be shaping up that well judging by the rumours going round on CN forum, that stage if realised will be absolute slaughter.
Stromeon wrote:
Old news - probably missed it being posted while I was away, so apologies if I'm just reposting - but the first three stages of the Giro were revealed about a month ago and I can't see any mention of them anywhere so thought I would put the profiles in here:
Pretty meh way to start the 100th edition if you ask me, highly reminiscent of the 100th Tour, with a start in Sardinia with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island, mirroring a start in Corsica with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island. That said, hard to predict who will be in pink after those three stages as there's a bit of rolling terrain around to make life a little difficult for the sprinters.
Elsewhere in the Giro, Mortirolo-Umbrail-Stelvio is very much on the cards. Even if the rest of the route doesn't seem to be shaping up that well judging by the rumours going round on CN forum, that stage if realised will be absolute slaughter.
Yup.Not the best use of the terrain there.
Also the rest of the route will be meh generally if the rumours in CN forum are true.
PS:I have also opened a Race Design Thread in this forum.Hopefully you and others will join and post their races.
I have a 21-day Tour of Turkey finished and a Tour de France without Pyrennes and Alpes finished as well but didn't post them yet.I have the first 6 stages of Tour of Turkey in CN forum though.
Edited by Forever the Best on 10-10-2016 16:00
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
TUEs are just a part of the problem that SKY had with doping violations in recent years and weeks.
Not that i think you would admit anything bad going there even if they would stuff it under your nose, but hey, we can try.
If proof was provided I would happily accept it. But that's the point, there is no proof at this time.
I've accepted that the TUE system has been abused, by all teams, not just Sky. But what lots of people don't seem willing to accept is that that is not a doping violation. Nothing illegal has been done.
It's all well and good saying I won't accept anything bad against Sky. I will happily accept it if anything is ever proven in the future. But you just as equally are trying to make out something illegal has been done based on some TUE's being released by an illegal hacking group. It works both ways
People keep saying "Sky are obviously on drugs because Lance was on drugs". If you're going to accuse any successful team/rider of cheating based on the past then why bother watching the sport. Sky need to be judged on their own merits. At this point those merits are that the TUE system has been abused, by every cycling team not just Sky, but nothing illegal has been done to date.
Do you know that Sky accused Emma Pooley of being with Simon Cope while Pooley was racing Emakumeen Bira in Spain?
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
TUEs are just a part of the problem that SKY had with doping violations in recent years and weeks.
Not that i think you would admit anything bad going there even if they would stuff it under your nose, but hey, we can try.
If proof was provided I would happily accept it. But that's the point, there is no proof at this time.
I've accepted that the TUE system has been abused, by all teams, not just Sky. But what lots of people don't seem willing to accept is that that is not a doping violation. Nothing illegal has been done.
It's all well and good saying I won't accept anything bad against Sky. I will happily accept it if anything is ever proven in the future. But you just as equally are trying to make out something illegal has been done based on some TUE's being released by an illegal hacking group. It works both ways
People keep saying "Sky are obviously on drugs because Lance was on drugs". If you're going to accuse any successful team/rider of cheating based on the past then why bother watching the sport. Sky need to be judged on their own merits. At this point those merits are that the TUE system has been abused, by every cycling team not just Sky, but nothing illegal has been done to date.
Do you know that Sky accused Emma Pooley of being with Simon Cope while Pooley was racing Emakumeen Bira in Spain?
Yes, I've read the article.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Do you know that Sky accused Emma Pooley of being with Simon Cope while Pooley was racing Emakumeen Bira in Spain?
Yes, I've read the article.
So why tell the lie if there is nothing to hide...
Is it not possible the exact circumstances of a meaningless situation from 5 years previously become a bit cloudy when asked about them 5 years later.
I'm sure if you asked most teams where riders/staff were 5 years ago they would struggle to tell you.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Do you know that Sky accused Emma Pooley of being with Simon Cope while Pooley was racing Emakumeen Bira in Spain?
Yes, I've read the article.
So why tell the lie if there is nothing to hide...
Is it not possible the exact circumstances of a meaningless situation from 5 years previously become a bit cloudy when asked about them 5 years later.
I'm sure if you asked most teams where riders/staff were 5 years ago they would struggle to tell you.
But Sky lied about it.They made a false accusation against Pooley.
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Do you know that Sky accused Emma Pooley of being with Simon Cope while Pooley was racing Emakumeen Bira in Spain?
Yes, I've read the article.
So why tell the lie if there is nothing to hide...
Is it not possible the exact circumstances of a meaningless situation from 5 years previously become a bit cloudy when asked about them 5 years later.
I'm sure if you asked most teams where riders/staff were 5 years ago they would struggle to tell you.
British Cycling would no doubt have records of travel and reason for taking trips, so being 'a bit cloudy' is a load of rubbish in my opinion. Emma Pooley has been wrongly brought into this, and even after the false claim for the trip was given, there has been alternative reason for Cope's visit to France. The other things that Brailsford said about the bus leaving shortly after the stage is a lie as well, as Wiggins was filmed giving an interview beside it!
In all honestly ringo - would you be this defensive about the fiasco if the team in question was Movistar or Etixx or Lotto Soudal?
the_hoyle wrote:
In all honestly ringo - would you be this defensive about the fiasco if the team in question was Movistar or Etixx or Lotto Soudal?
And follow up question, why does he always bring up other teams when SKY are the ones who are the story and have been blatanly abusing the TUE system. Other teams other teams... it's not about other teams, it's about Sky and how they have abused it.
Of course Wiggins can be stripped of his Tour title when he has abused the system, especially if there is inclination of a corrupt system eg doctors. Just because something means it's legal under circumstances doesn't mean it makes okay to abuse the system. The word "abuse" is key here, and no sorry excuse can save him from that. That said, I don't think Wiggo will be stripped of anything because UCI lacks guts & evidence (at least for now!) but it's nonetheless possible when evidence confirms an clear abuse, and who knows what dirt might else be uncovered. TUE is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
People keep saying "Sky are obviously on drugs because Lance was on drugs". If you're going to accuse any successful team/rider of cheating based on the past then why bother watching the sport. Sky need to be judged on their own merits. At this point those merits are that the TUE system has been abused, by every cycling team not just Sky, but nothing illegal has been done to date.
Because cycling doesn't belong to dopers, it's a wonderful sport and it shouldn't be given to such a corruption of ethics. Anyone who says you should stop watching cycling is effectively giving up a sport he loves because of the corruption in it. A sorry excuse to quit watching something you love. Yes yes I support known dopers such as Contador and Valverde but I still welcome any ban towards them to clear the system.
Own merits? I rather prefer to live in the context of the sport. Even Wiggins recognized that when he said that every grand tour winner will be confronted with doping accusations, however as soon as it happend to him he went nuts. SKYs merits are suspicious data and weird transformations, marginal gain lies & suspicious tue lies lately, hypocritical anti-doping stance including doctor with doping history, pr bullshit and continous domination of le Tour. They have enough bodies in their cellar to warrant any doping suspicion towards them despite Armstrong and the sport's history, that stuff just adds to it on the top.
Also, "nothing illegal" has been done to date is basically the same as never tested positive. Just because we don't know about it yet, doesn't mean it didn't happen and it surely doesn't mean we won't find out eventually. Their merits will be exposed one day in full.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Stromeon wrote:
Old news - probably missed it being posted while I was away, so apologies if I'm just reposting - but the first three stages of the Giro were revealed about a month ago and I can't see any mention of them anywhere so thought I would put the profiles in here:
Pretty meh way to start the 100th edition if you ask me, highly reminiscent of the 100th Tour, with a start in Sardinia with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island, mirroring a start in Corsica with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island. That said, hard to predict who will be in pink after those three stages as there's a bit of rolling terrain around to make life a little difficult for the sprinters.
Elsewhere in the Giro, Mortirolo-Umbrail-Stelvio is very much on the cards. Even if the rest of the route doesn't seem to be shaping up that well judging by the rumours going round on CN forum, that stage if realised will be absolute slaughter.
Yup.Not the best use of the terrain there.
Also the rest of the route will be meh generally if the rumours in CN forum are true.
PS:I have also opened a Race Design Thread in this forum.Hopefully you and others will join and post their races.
I have a 21-day Tour of Turkey finished and a Tour de France without Pyrennes and Alpes finished as well but didn't post them yet.I have the first 6 stages of Tour of Turkey in CN forum though.
Unfortunately I don't really have much time for stage designing at the moment, but it would be nice to see a Race Design Thread grow on here similar to the CN Forum one, although I worry there is less interest here. Would be nice if we could somehow link it up with the stage designers - I for one am perhaps competent at stage designing but really not very good at stage making and I'm sure there are people who are the reverse who might appreciate the hassle being taken off their hands!
Stromeon wrote:
Old news - probably missed it being posted while I was away, so apologies if I'm just reposting - but the first three stages of the Giro were revealed about a month ago and I can't see any mention of them anywhere so thought I would put the profiles in here:
Pretty meh way to start the 100th edition if you ask me, highly reminiscent of the 100th Tour, with a start in Sardinia with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island, mirroring a start in Corsica with three road stages, none of them making best use of the hilly terrain of the island. That said, hard to predict who will be in pink after those three stages as there's a bit of rolling terrain around to make life a little difficult for the sprinters.
Elsewhere in the Giro, Mortirolo-Umbrail-Stelvio is very much on the cards. Even if the rest of the route doesn't seem to be shaping up that well judging by the rumours going round on CN forum, that stage if realised will be absolute slaughter.
Yup.Not the best use of the terrain there.
Also the rest of the route will be meh generally if the rumours in CN forum are true.
PS:I have also opened a Race Design Thread in this forum.Hopefully you and others will join and post their races.
I have a 21-day Tour of Turkey finished and a Tour de France without Pyrennes and Alpes finished as well but didn't post them yet.I have the first 6 stages of Tour of Turkey in CN forum though.
Unfortunately I don't really have much time for stage designing at the moment, but it would be nice to see a Race Design Thread grow on here similar to the CN Forum one, although I worry there is less interest here. Would be nice if we could somehow link it up with the stage designers - I for one am perhaps competent at stage designing but really not very good at stage making and I'm sure there are people who are the reverse who might appreciate the hassle being taken off their hands!
It is not like I am very good either
Probably much worse than you.
After losing the Ronde Van Vlaanderen start, Bruges will host a new race in 2017. It will start as a 1.1 race, but their aim is to get WT within 5 years. There's no route yet, but I'm expecting a race like Gent-Wevelgem, although they want to finish in Bruges so the final should be a bit easier.
"I could have understood him taking risks if he had been alone, to widen the gap, but not when he was halfway down the descent, in the trees, where the road was dark, damp and slippery. It would have sufficed to offer some money to Henao and things were sorted. For Henao, winning the [Olympic] games wouldn't have made a huge difference.
"This kind of deal has always existed. It's not the victory that it bought but collaboration. At Zolder, when I won, money was talked about with a team that had nothing to gain and that could be there for a reason. For $100,000, Henao could have looked after Majka, and Nibali would have returned to Italy with the gold medal around his neck. Compared to the pile of money he would have gathered later with other contracts, $100,000 isn't much!"
Cipollini living in his own world, what a symbol of virtue he is..
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
