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PCM.daily Projects WT Stat Discussion
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| matt17br |
Posted on 12-08-2016 23:02
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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You weren't the only one testing it. Take a look at kentsurus' pcm 14 thread, that's some scientific method right there. I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but that would mean years of pcm testing would go to waste.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 12-08-2016 23:57
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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camouflage wrote:
haasje33 wrote:
1. If you comment on someone's post, comment on the contents of the post, not on the person!
So why dont you say something constructive, istead of insult me.
I just mean, not everything is depends on the main stats, like mon, spr, ttr. There are other important stats too and theres is RDC too, which, i think is a bit overpowered in 2016. for expample in my career, Math Frank was 2nd on 2016 Vuelta, moved IAM up to 15th place from the last, and keep his team in WT. BTW AI team.
Funny that you bring this up. Adding your name to it...are you marcoplv95?
Just kidding.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 12-08-2016 23:58
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Also I would definately put Tony on 80 TT, not 79. Surely he was off for a year, but Cancellara was also off in long ITTs.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 13-08-2016 06:20
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Paul23 wrote:
Also I would definately put Tony on 80 TT, not 79. Surely he was off for a year, but Cancellara was also off in long ITTs.
And last year...Tony will never be a Cancellara, never win so much.
Don't compare a normal rider, with one of the best ever. |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 13-08-2016 09:37
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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https://youtu.be/...XU?t=1m25s
Missing IQ stats in PCM, Quintana has under 25.
181-200+ Super Genius
166-180 Big Genius
145-165 Geni
132-144 Extremely gifted
121-131 Endowed
111-120 Above normal
90-110 Average
80-89 Low average
68-79 Slow
50-67 Mentally retarded
25-49 Imbecile
Under 25 Idiot |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 17:56
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| IP: None |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 13-08-2016 10:00
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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*PCM goes to 85
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 22-08-2016 17:43
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Quintana and Contador is much overrated in your DB!!!
Edited by Arberg27 on 22-08-2016 18:18
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 22-08-2016 17:46
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Team Leader
Posts: 7357
Joined: 22-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
https://youtu.be/...XU?t=1m25s
Missing IQ stats in PCM, Quintana has under 25.
181-200+ Super Genius
166-180 Big Genius
145-165 Geni
132-144 Extremely gifted
121-131 Endowed
111-120 Above normal
90-110 Average
80-89 Low average
68-79 Slow
50-67 Mentally retarded
25-49 Imbecile
Under 25 Idiot
Guess what the 27 in Arberg's username stands for 
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| Maddox |
Posted on 22-08-2016 18:56
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 329
Joined: 19-06-2013
PCM$: 400.00
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Spilak23 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
https://youtu.be/...XU?t=1m25s
Missing IQ stats in PCM, Quintana has under 25.
181-200+ Super Genius
166-180 Big Genius
145-165 Geni
132-144 Extremely gifted
121-131 Endowed
111-120 Above normal
90-110 Average
80-89 Low average
68-79 Slow
50-67 Mentally retarded
25-49 Imbecile
Under 25 Idiot
Guess what the 27 in Arberg's username stands for
Guess what the 23 in Spilak's username stands for 
You did not see that one backfire - and I'm only kidding  |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 22-08-2016 19:41
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Then go to a forum with a better DB and don't come back!
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Kiserlovski01 |
Posted on 22-08-2016 20:14
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4054
Joined: 26-04-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Maddox wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
https://youtu.be/...XU?t=1m25s
Missing IQ stats in PCM, Quintana has under 25.
181-200+ Super Genius
166-180 Big Genius
145-165 Geni
132-144 Extremely gifted
121-131 Endowed
111-120 Above normal
90-110 Average
80-89 Low average
68-79 Slow
50-67 Mentally retarded
25-49 Imbecile
Under 25 Idiot
Guess what the 27 in Arberg's username stands for
Guess what the 23 in Spilak's username stands for
You did not see that one backfire - and I'm only kidding
Not funny guys 
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 22-08-2016 21:23
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Maddox wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
https://youtu.be/...XU?t=1m25s
Missing IQ stats in PCM, Quintana has under 25.
181-200+ Super Genius
166-180 Big Genius
145-165 Geni
132-144 Extremely gifted
121-131 Endowed
111-120 Above normal
90-110 Average
80-89 Low average
68-79 Slow
50-67 Mentally retarded
25-49 Imbecile
Under 25 Idiot
Guess what the 27 in Arberg's username stands for
Guess what the 23 in Spilak's username stands for
You did not see that one backfire - and I'm only kidding
Haha so funny Nice one |
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| haasje33 |
Posted on 23-08-2016 14:32
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Sprinter
Posts: 1679
Joined: 08-08-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Stay on-topic please!
Inactive due to personal reasons.
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| LuckyLukas |
Posted on 24-08-2016 19:14
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Under 23
Posts: 62
Joined: 29-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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I really have some issues with the TT stat in this DB.
From my expeiences playing the game there is a tendency that the GC guys sometimes have to high TT stats but especially the specialists having to low TT stats.
I think that's because the mountain stat is not been taken appropriately into consideration.
As an example I want to take the hilly TT (stage 13) of the TdF. In those kind of TT's (most of modern cycling TT's are hilly) guys like Coppel, Oliveira, Castroviejo, Bodnar, Barta or Roglic get outperformed by Quintana, Valverde.... way to often in PCM.
That's the reason I eddited many TT stats in by DB now getting pretty realistic results. So here are some suggestions.
TT specialists
Dumoulin 81
Malori, Cancelara, Coppel, Dennis, Bodnar 79/80
Oliveira 79
Phinney, Martin 78
Barta, Roglic, Kiriyenka, Dowsett, Hepburn 77
Durbridge, Küng, Clement, Starke Langen, van Emden, Bookwalter 76
GC contenders
Froome 79/80
Izagirre, G. Thomas, Jungels 77
Pinot, Talanski, TVG, Porte 76
Craddock, Kelderman 75
Mollema, Armador, Spilak, Contador 74
Zakarin, Kreuziger, Nibali, Valverde, Kruijswijk, Quintana 73
Yates, Majka 71
Bardet 70
Aru, Chavez 69
Meintjes 68
D. Martin, Rodriguez 67
Of cause you can argue if have given some riders one point to much or to less, but that's not my point.
There is no doubt that Froome is better in TT's than Bodnar, Coppel...and he will with these stats because his Mountain stat will make the differece on most time trials. The other way arround guys like Dowsett or Hepburn... will only perform really good on flat TT's due to there bad mountain stat. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 24-08-2016 22:11
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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There are a number of things that you need to take into consideration when it comes to doing TT stats.
1) Most importantly GT contenders always need good TT stats because irl when they are in contention they normally perform well, unless they're are really bad at TT, even non TT riders like Quintana and Aru can perform well.
2) Most GT TT's as you say have hilly terrain but even if it's not a climbing TT of any kind most GT riders will get a good time if they need to.
3) TT specialists not getting great times in GT's is actually quite realistic unless they have specifically targeted the TT, some have other targets and quite often others could be on domestic duties for their GT leader if they're are contention and won't go full gas in the TT.
4) Bear in mind there has been a real decline at the very top level of TT at the moment (since worlds 15) and even the best TT rider Dumoulin can be unpredictable when he rides for several reasons.
5) Finally there is no way some of the TT specialists you mentioned for having 79-80 TT should actually be that high.
Also there have been some changes since the Olympics but nothing as high as you have suggested, you also need to bear in mind RES too which most of the best TT specialists are high in and that helps them.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 24-08-2016 22:18
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 25-08-2016 00:40
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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I'm just gonna give my opinion, but your the stats guy o take it for what it's worth.
I never like these general ideas that all GC guys should get good TT, or recovery, or resistance, etc, just because they are contenders. They should get whatever reflects their real life performance, without any other manipulations.
To go with that, it's a bit naive to think that GC riders can all TT because they place somewhat highly in GT TT's. The fact of the matter is that they don't place highly because they magically become better time trialists or have some great motivation, but that riders who aren't in contention for GC or the stage often sit up and conserve energy. While this can't directly be replicated in PCM, it will manifest itself in the AI through the recovery of contenders with higher mountain not being as drained late in the race. And beyond that it is of course completely applicable by the human player.
Overall I'm just not a fan of these general rules possibly inflating stats beyond what people deserve. Just some food for thought. I don't even have PCM 16 so it doesn't affect me.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-08-2016 01:37
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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When we talk about GC guys generally doing well in TTs, we're not only talking about GTs, but also in races where the recovery stat doesn't even come into play - since it kicks in with the second week at best, most one week stage races are not touched.
I certainly wouldn't say we're producing any inflation in such a hard stat to keep updating like TT is, GC guys don't get 1 point more than what they deserve. If they have a stat over 70, that's because they've had a result - in a race they were aiming to win/top 5/top 10 - that makes them deserve it.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 25-08-2016 01:42
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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Arberg27 wrote:
Maddox wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
https://youtu.be/...XU?t=1m25s
Missing IQ stats in PCM, Quintana has under 25.
181-200+ Super Genius
166-180 Big Genius
145-165 Geni
132-144 Extremely gifted
121-131 Endowed
111-120 Above normal
90-110 Average
80-89 Low average
68-79 Slow
50-67 Mentally retarded
25-49 Imbecile
Under 25 Idiot
Guess what the 27 in Arberg's username stands for
Guess what the 23 in Spilak's username stands for
You did not see that one backfire - and I'm only kidding
Haha so funny Nice one
Nice to know I'm a super genius, will make sure to mention this in my college applications. 
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| LuckyLukas |
Posted on 25-08-2016 08:44
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Under 23
Posts: 62
Joined: 29-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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1) Most importantly GT contenders always need good TT stats because irl when they are in contention they normally perform well, unless they're are really bad at TT, even non TT riders like Quintana and Aru can perform well.
1) I disagree on that point. Even with a TT stat of 65-70 GC contenders perform solid because of their good mountain and Res stat. If every GC contender has a TT stat of 70+ the time gaps in the TT's are not getting big enough.
In the long TdF TT seven of the top ten in the final GC were 3-5 minutes down on Dumoulin.
In the long Giro TT they were a bit better but still guys like Majka, Chaves, Zakarin, Uran were 3-5 Minutes down.
You don't get even close to these results if you give guys like Chaves and Bardet a 72 TT stat.
3) TT specialists not getting great times in GT's is actually quite realistic unless they have specifically targeted the TT, some have other targets and quite often others could be on domestic duties for their GT leader if they're are contention and won't go full gas in the TT.
3) This years and also last years GT TT's speak another language. If you are looking at the Top 15 of the GT TT's you will recognise that there are only 3-5 GC contenders and many more specialists.
When I play PCM with this DB its the other way arround.
Also there have been some changes since the Olympics but nothing as high as you have suggested, you also need to bear in mind RES too which most of the best TT specialists are high in and that helps them.
I have not mentioned the RES because specialists and GC riders mostly both have a good RES |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 25-08-2016 08:48
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Bear in mind as well, that a GT contender without a half decent TT skill is a big Achilles heel in their armoury. so most work on improving and minimizing their losses in that discipline as one of the main areas of training (even if some never really improve that much) Nearly all the main top GT contenders can TT well anyway Froome, Nibali, Contador, Porte, Valverde etc when they need to, even riders like Quintana and Aru who not so long ago couldn't TT that well are easily worth their lower 70s' TT stats which are not very high TT stats anyway but just enough to keep them from being totally destroyed by the likes of Froome over a longer TT.
All these GT riders can TT adequatley which is why their TT stats are as they are and what they deserve, we've never actually boosted anybody that consistently does poorly in TT's. For some of them we are also talking 72 to 74 TT which is not high at all but adequate to keep them in the picture but they're still going to lose quite a bit of time anyway.
At the end of the day a GT rider with a decent TT stat vs a TT specialist should be the ones contesting a TT in a GT TT which is what happens irl as the situation is not loaded in favour of either. In general a GT rider should do better over a hillier course and a TT specialist over a flatter one. Even then it's not that clear cut as quite a few TT specialists have climbings stats in the 70s anyway and we also have to take into consideration lesser names that put in a big TT result and then make a decision based on them as well.
I POSTED THE ABOVE BEFORE SEEING THE LAST POST but I really do feel it would be a big mistake to start putting some of the GT contenders with late 60's TT stats and then just relying on motivation to get them a good result because even with lower 70s TT results they are still limiting their losses as much as they can.
Also I wouldn't look at a top 10 but more a top 20-30 to get the overall picture for TT's but personally speaking from my own results, I don't get the one-sided outcome as you've been getting in favour of GT riders but a bit more of a mix.
Also some TT specialists can be very inconsistent and just choose their TT's to do well in like Castroviejo etc. In fact I've actually had more people suggesting that we put down certain TT stats for TT specialists than GT contenders, because of their inconsistency in TTs, much more so that people suggesting that the GT contenders are too high.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 25-08-2016 09:50
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