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24-11-2024 22:36
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News in June
baseballlover312
I_Mayo wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
I_Mayo wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
wasting cap space on useless riders coming over through it


Yeah, because of them Alex Howes can't get his dream come true of riding in breakaway of every big race. Look at that roster without those Cannondale riders, what are you left with, Nathan Brown, Philipp Gaimon, Ben King? Who are those people anyway. It's not that I don't mind this whole "clean team" moniker that Garmin has been representing, but that team lacks in quality over quantity and there's a tendency of their riders underperforming.


Well no. Those guys might be useless but that's not who they were left with. Prior to that merger they had better riders as well. Their team has only gotten worse the last few years and it's not like the riders they've gotten through mergers have worked out to well. They fell out with Hushovd real quick, and if you think about who came over from the Cannondale merger, who has been any more useful than the Americans you mentioned? Formolo still has potential but can't figure out how to last more than a few days. Mohoric left already. Moser will never live up to his Pologne win. Bettiol is still very young but what even is he again, a sprinter? I don't even know cause I've barely even seen him in a breakaway. Villela hasn't done anything. Koren's a fine domestique I suppose, but who the hell even is Marangoni? The guy is 31 years old, can't do anything for crap and even if he gets in a breakaway, he can't win from it. You're telling me that guy isn't a waste?

Honestly, none of those guys have done better besides maybe Moser than any of the Americans you mentioned. Gaimon's been crap, but Howes does place highly in lower level races and gets into a lot of breaks. You may say that's useless but it's better than doing absolutely nothing! Nathan Brown is also a decent climber and is still very young, and Ben King isn't great either but can climb enough to get in breaks. Again, these guys are pretty useless but that doesn't justify bringing even more useless riders in.

Call me racist or whatever, but I'd rather have crap Americans than crap other riders on the team, because they started as a more developmental team for Americans in the first place.


Should have started with that.

The problem is that without those "useless" riders you just don't have a ProTour level team. USA just isn't big enough cycling country to have a PT team made mostly out of their own riders development team or not, especially when there are two other semi US teams.
Also fact that Formolo, Moser and rest of the talented guys haven't been able to show their potential is more due to Garmin itself.
Also you should be happy that they're are bringing Drapac to the table as that means more Anglo riders rather than Italians.


I said I'm not trying to be racist. I mean Christ, I'm American but I'm not Anglo at all. In fact I'm half Italian. It's certainly not about that.
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Spilak23
JV's merger trick has become annual traditition
 
I_Mayo
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?


I don't know. Maybe because of those 21st century pseudo-liberals.
 
trekbmc
ivaneurope wrote:
trekbmc wrote:
Don't really like that Cannondale - Drapac merge, mostly because Drapac is one of my favourite teams and Cannondale, while I don't dislike them, I don't particularly like them either. Only positive of this is it could give some Aussies such as Canty a chance to do well in the World Tour, we'll see.


What did you expect? It's going to be the same thing Vaughters done before with Cervelo Test Team and Cannondale (the former Liquigas) - taking their sponsorship and acquiring a sloo of riders from the teams while the Slipstream management is the same


That's exactly what I expect, all I said is that I don't like it.



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Choklets
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?


Seeing as how multinational corporates are screwing each of us no matter our nationality you are right.

But sports are not unprejudiced, political correct, loveydovey 21st century daily life. Don't you call the referee names when he rules against your team?
Don't you make jokes about the neighbouring city's team that are way below the belt?

In sports not our enlightened superego calls the shots but our lower, urge-driven Id.
 
I_Mayo
Choklets wrote:
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?


Seeing as how multinational corporates are screwing each of us no matter our nationality you are right.

But sports are not unprejudiced, political correct, loveydovey 21st century daily life. Don't you call the referee names when he rules against your team?
Don't you make jokes about the neighbouring city's team that are way below the belt?

In sports not our enlightened superego calls the shots but our lower, urge-driven Id.


The only word that mattered in your statement.
 
Riis123
Choklets wrote:
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?


Seeing as how multinational corporates are screwing each of us no matter our nationality you are right.

But sports are not unprejudiced, political correct, loveydovey 21st century daily life. Don't you call the referee names when he rules against your team?
Don't you make jokes about the neighbouring city's team that are way below the belt?

In sports not our enlightened superego calls the shots but our lower, urge-driven Id.


Good post. We can't help what we feel. Sometimes, it may not be politically correct or whatever, but that doesn't make people thinking otherwise better or morally superior on this case.
 
weirdskyfan64
So Vaughters took Garmin, then merged it with Cannondale formerly Liquigas, sold off most of the decent riders such as Sagan and Dennis, had a crap season, sold off all the decent riders left so that he was left with a rump team and scrapped the Garmin bit so that he had what he had at the beginning, then merged it with an Australian team. Ooh, and Tom Danielson.
He may as well just wear a hat saying 'PCT!'
Disclaimer- Most of my posts are me thinking aloud. And most of what I think is rubbish.
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"... Because he (me) has a sound tactical mind in general..." jandal7, at 9:30 am GMT on 12th May 2016
 
SSJ2Luigi
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?

thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/national-pride-words-rising-arrow-little-man-pushing-up-trend-36932604.jpg
 
Shonak
Of course american riders are important for an american team, that's what the public cares about, that what the media reports about. That's why sponsors pull money in sports. If you guys actually state that nationality is arbitary you havn't followed politics in a long while. Smile
Also, most people on cycling forums have clear national priorities even if those priorities are not necessarily their own nationality (me as an austrian, appreciating all spanish, italian and benelux riders, whilst caring only on occassion for austrian riders..)

I'd be confused at a dutch team without dutch, a spanish team without spanish riders. Who has not loved Euskaltel-Euskadi for their very local approach? Dimension Data isn't that team who recently promoted, they are the african team, albeit with less and less africans each year. Certainlty Italy displays well the problem of cycling: There are many great italians but the important ones are in foreign teams. This has an effect on media reports and representation in its own country.

And Cannondale has sorta a responsibility to support cycling in the USA, every team has, or should the very least. They should bring upstarts, develop talents of USA, ride home races. Otherwise, they could as well be some other countries' squad or whatnot.

Vaughters meanwhile does his best to stay afloat and relevant somewhat. Right now Cannondale is such a shipwreck he needs all he can get. Money-grobbing SoB. Apparently he even needs guys from a recently promoted PCT team, instead of securing and finding new ways in the USA. This guy is hopeless in so many ways. I mean, surely there must be some talent there, look at all those continental guys crushing Utah and California. Even on Strava you find american young studs who are greatly talented, jeez there are so many american conti teams, or university cycling program. But what do I care. Cannondale out of World Tour will minimize crash risk by at least 50% in major races. It's scientifically proven, Vaughters guarantee.
Edited by Shonak on 30-06-2016 21:23
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Shonak
I really hope Moser, Formolo and Pierro will leave Cannonfail. There's no hope in such a place.
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weirdskyfan64
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?

Have you even seen ManGame?
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"... Because he (me) has a sound tactical mind in general..." jandal7, at 9:30 am GMT on 12th May 2016
 
Riis123
Shonak wrote:

Also, most people on cycling forums have clear national priorities even if those priorities are not necessarily their own nationality (me as an austrian, appreciating all spanish, italian and benelux riders, whilst caring only on occassion for austrian riders..)


Same, almost exclusively care for Spanish and Colombian riders and follow them. Obviously I also root for others, but for some reason, they are the ones I like the most. Strange, isn't it?

On the other hand, Im more extreme in the sense that I often hope the Danish won't be selected or even fail when they do get selected so I can avoid the national bias and hype surrounding the big races, mostly from commentators, so they will comment on whats actually going on in the grander scheme of things. The one exception being Michael Rasmussen.
 
Choklets
Wow...Vaughters really IS popular around here!

Strydz generally is right tho. Nationalism is petty.
Shonak has some very good points too.

Me, e.g., I am a huge fan of Jungels and Keldermann though I am neither luxembourgeois nor dutch.

But as I said before, I think it makes more sense for german sponsors to have germans winning races under their banner than, for example, Sagan or Bennett and thus I hope that the rumor about Sagan and his merry bunch moving to Bora will turn out a hoax.

Riis, that's what I like about german speaking Eurosport. They got french Jean-Claude Leclercq co-commenting. He actually got a thick swiss accent.
So their commenting is rather balanced with the focus being shared between german-speaking riders and teams. British Eurosport on the other hand is a no-go. Wink

Rasmussen...ah memories...TdF 2007...Sinkewitz, Winojerkov, german TV coverage imploding, Mayo and the rise of Bertie.
 
sammyt93
Spoiler'd because it's probably too long a post otherwise.

@ the Bora discussion

Spoiler
tbf though, in Buchman, Bauhaus and Herklotz they've got possibly the 3 brightest German talents in cycling, and if signing Sagan and co is what it takes for them to go WT and to keep those riders whilst simultaneously getting them experience in the biggest races then it's right for them.

Martin might be a realistic transfer for them as he's not been as strong this year as previously so Ettix might look to swap him for a younger up and coming TTist like they did with Cav for Kittel and Gavira so he could be a possible signing, but him alone won't be enough to justify going WT and I can't see Kittel or Degenkolb moving this season.

Geschke might be a possible target, I don't know how secure he is at Giant, although them signing Ten Dam and selling Kittel last year suggests they might be going more into GC than sprinting which would make him less available.

If they keep the Germans they've got then they've effectively got the best of the next generation Germans and the guys that will likely be fighting for wins in 2-3 years time and adding someone who wouldn't disrupt their schedule at that point but would be a star and worth the media attention and who will get the the race results in the mean time.

And Sagan and the others mention fit in with the squad nationality wise when you think they have guys like Barta, Huzarski, Konrad, Muhlberger, Postlberger and used to have Konig who there has been talk of possibly returning if they do go WT.

And it's not like they don't already have a nice amount of Germans to form the backbone of the team and who we could see being aggressive and getting in the breaks and helping keep the German sponsors and media happy that way.

@ Garmin

Spoiler
There doesn't seem to be as many strong Americans as there used to be, maybe they've not had the same chance as they did in the past, but there aren't as many in the WT as there used to be a few seasons ago when there were more at Trek, BMC and Garmin. If Garmin were to give riders like Eaton and Daniel a chance that would help but out of the Bontrager team that was so hyped 4-5 season ago only Dombo and Craddock (only recently at that) have really shown anything. Boswell seems a little stuck in the Sky Train to progress, Mannion is at Drapac and I don't know how he is doing there but I'd have thought he'd be a WT domestique by now, and might indeed reach that level next year with the merger, no idea what happened to Eastman, Brown I thought would have been stronger than he currently is, I thought he'd be closer to where Craddock is now although I don't really expect him to go much past that, just to have a stronger TT than Craddock.

That said Moser, Formolo, Brown and Craddock who I just mentioned, previously Morton, Gaimon, Slagter, Villella, previously Haas, Previously Dennis, Previously Von Hoff, I think you get the point by now haven't exactly progressed as expected at Garmin which suggests something behind the scenes isn't right with the team apart from Finances and the riders they are bringing in.

 
Strydz
SSJ2Luigi wrote:
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?

thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/national-pride-words-rising-arrow-little-man-pushing-up-trend-36932604.jpg


You see I'm from Australia and we as a nation have absolutely nothing to be proud of.
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Avin Wargunnson
You are the biggest prison colony world has ever seen, that is something to be proud of. Pfft
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ringo182
Strydz wrote:
SSJ2Luigi wrote:
Strydz wrote:
I don't understand why anyone cares about what nationality a rider is or what country a team is from, why does it matter?

thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/national-pride-words-rising-arrow-little-man-pushing-up-trend-36932604.jpg


You see I'm from Australia and we as a nation have absolutely nothing to be proud of.


Neighbours Smile
 
Ian Butler
George Carlin touched on this topic perfectly.

He says: how can you be proud of your nationality? It's not something you could've done about, nothing noteworthy of all. It's just something that you were born into.
It's like you'd be proud you have blue eyes, proud you're a man, proud you have two arms.

He says you can be proud of things you've done, but it's silly to be proud of something that just happened to you.
 
jandal7
Yes, but when you live in an awesome country, like, I don't know. New Zealand, you can be proud of it Cool
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