Matt- I never brought up his money first, people pointed it out and I corrected them with facts, that's all.
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
Great, an article based on guesswork. That clears things up.
Weren't you accusing others of using "biased politifact" articles a few posts ago
Look. You can vote for Trump. I think he's a clown. Lets both get on with our lives.
Never said I was voting for him, that's something you based off ahem guesswork.
Yes I was saying they were biased, they are extremely left wing, so when they say democrats are lying about his money/bank etc. it means twice as much to me. Because if it was true they would love to jump on and say it's true.
This is my first time on daily in forever, sorry for stirring shit up
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
Great, an article based on guesswork. That clears things up.
Weren't you accusing others of using "biased politifact" articles a few posts ago
Look. You can vote for Trump. I think he's a clown. Lets both get on with our lives.
Never said I was voting for him, that's something you based off ahem guesswork.
Yes I was saying they were biased, they are extremely left wing, so when they say democrats are lying about his money/bank etc. it means twice as much to me. Because if it was true they would love to jump on and say it's true.
This is my first time on daily in forever, sorry for stirring shit up
I never said you will be voting for Trump. I said you can vote for him. You can vote for Hilary too
It wouldn't be PCMdaily without a simple of the cuff remark getting blown into full on debate/argument
Among the biggest donors for Hillarys political career are Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup and JP Morgan.
If these banks want Mrs Clinton to beat Trump in a presidental race it would be hard to keep up for him. Even though he's a successful businessman.
I can agree that it isn't a nice thing, or a little ignorant to tell Americans what's best for them, but it's tough to judge those who do.
Western civilisation the past years is shaped by actions of the US government and meddling in internal affairs of other countries seems to be a major part of American policy.
t-baum wrote:...
This is my first time on daily in forever, sorry for stirring shit up
No need to be sorry, it's nice to see a little more diversity here than in the evening news.
Great, an article based on guesswork. That clears things up.
Weren't you accusing others of using "biased politifact" articles a few posts ago
Look. You can vote for Trump. I think he's a clown. Lets both get on with our lives.
Never said I was voting for him, that's something you based off ahem guesswork.
Yes I was saying they were biased, they are extremely left wing, so when they say democrats are lying about his money/bank etc. it means twice as much to me. Because if it was true they would love to jump on and say it's true.
This is my first time on daily in forever, sorry for stirring shit up
I never said you will be voting for Trump. I said you can vote for him. You can vote for Hilary too
It wouldn't be PCMdaily without a simple of the cuff remark getting blown into full on debate/argument
Fair enough and that concludes my time in the politics thread lol
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
Great, an article based on guesswork. That clears things up.
Weren't you accusing others of using "biased politifact" articles a few posts ago
Look. You can vote for Trump. I think he's a clown. Lets both get on with our lives.
Never said I was voting for him, that's something you based off ahem guesswork.
Yes I was saying they were biased, they are extremely left wing, so when they say democrats are lying about his money/bank etc. it means twice as much to me. Because if it was true they would love to jump on and say it's true.
This is my first time on daily in forever, sorry for stirring shit up
I never said you will be voting for Trump. I said you can vote for him. You can vote for Hilary too
It wouldn't be PCMdaily without a simple of the cuff remark getting blown into full on debate/argument
Fair enough and that concludes my time in the politics thread lol
Hahaha! Love it!
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Was here a serious discussion about Trump being anything else than racist idiotic spoiled billionare going? Come on people, anyone with a bit of reason has to define against such a stupidity, Then again, Americans are in the play, so we have to consider lower IQ values across the board.
Also it is funny how Europeans and an Aussie should not be entitled to opinion on hegemonic power elections, while that country acts like they have all the answers for questions coming from other side of the earth, policing the whole world with their power plays...
It's my opinion that a president or whatever (USA or other country) doesn't really matter much. It's not them ruling the country at all. I notice that here, too. It doesn't matter whether left or right is in the government, it all boils down to the same things:
- environment always gets screwed for "job opportunities". Cut down forests to build factories, makes perfect sense to me! Keep the nuclear plants, too. No harm in that, right. And keep the cars on the rise! They're not harmful at all.
- Corporations always gets a free pass.
Unfortunately this is no democracy it's a corporatocracy of some sort.
It's my opinion that a president or whatever (USA or other country) doesn't really matter much.
While I generally disagree that there are lots of details, sometimes very important details, that are handled differently by different governing parties, I agree that many, probably most, basic principles of each state, including the ones you named (industry>environment), are fix, no matter who runs the government.
However, when extremists gain popularity, even if they don't change actual policy, the least they do is change the public debate.
When someone who puts entire nationalities, races or religions under general suspicion of being criminals or generally "bad people" is strongly represented in the public and social media and his or their views are being repeated and it's implied that they are valid standpoints in a debate, you can bet that the threshold to use such defamation on a smaller scale plummets.
Lots of people that I would've considered fairly moderate and open-minded are suddenly repeating populist to borderline xenophobic phrases from the likes of Trump, or, as primarily in my environment, the AfD (a right wing conservative party with lots of neo-nazis who are recently gaining a lot of momentum, maybe comparable to the FN in France).
It makes a major difference if prejudging refugees on racial and religious stereotypes is frowned upon by society or suddenly something "one should be allowed to say". And it makes a major difference if a party promoting this has 2,5% or 25%.
Many political items are mostly set. But politics is more than just one or two big issues. Your votes do matter
The fact of the matter is that Trump actually says things and acts like normal people, and does not sugar coat it. He is actually saying things that Americans want to hear, and he is one that will actually take action and try to make changes.
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
jseadog1 wrote:
The fact of the matter is that Trump actually says things and acts like normal people, and does not sugar coat it. He is actually saying things that Americans want to hear, and he is one that will actually take action and try to make changes.
What both "normal people" and "Americans" exactly are is probably hard to define (without any judgment. Just bear in mind that those who you consider normal or average are probably not my normal or average people).
My main issue with "not sugar-coating things" and "saying things that the people want to hear" is the following:
In my opinion, it's not the politician's job to say or do what he thinks "his" people want him to (I'll specify that in a second - also bear in mind that this is a utopian scenario, and while it probably won't ever be like this, we should still strive to come close).
There are a few things that come into play here for my argument:
a) There's no coherent will of the people. The people are divided on everything. Politicians have to take into account both the opinions of majorities and minorities and find compromises both can live with the best.
b) Politicians should have more expertise than normal people. Their job shouldn't be to get the simplistic views of the people and apply them to the complex problems, it should be to break down the complex problems, make them comprehensible and convince the normal people when they've come to conclusions that contradict the public opinion - based on their superior expertise.
c) Politicians should be better people. Everyone of us is influenced heavily by our upbringing, our immediate surroundings and our everyday problems. And while that applies to Politicians as well, they have the time and more importantly the obligation to leave those "lesser" motives behind.
And I know, I know, most of you are probably under your tables laughing right now, especially after that last point. Again, it's an idealistic view, and it requires an enormous amount of trust which is something politics heavily need to work on.
What I wanted to underline here was that - again, in my opinion - in the system of a representative democracy, which most of us live in I think, politicians shouldn't be mere voices of the people (which is what Donald Trump I think is trying to do). Then they'd be nothing but bureaucrats and we could also just hold referendums on everything.
Politicians should be the ones uniting the different groups of society and facilitate their cohabitation - even acting against the majority's will if they deem it necessary. We should vote for them because we trust them to have the expertise and the values to do that.
----------------------
Writing the last paragraph I've come to realize that my whole point is only valid in my personal system of values (yes, I know, something that should be painfully obvious). Someone who is against a pluralistic society and / or against that kind of democracy may find this bullshit, and rightfully so (in a sense that it isn't coherent with his system of values). I'm going to post this nevertheless since I've put some time in it and I'm obviously a missionary at work
€: Also, if you find these long posts annoying, please tell me. I think I've said this in a previous post, I'm using this as an opportunity to try to frame my political opinions, mostly because I revise them in the process and they become clearer to me. Smug as I am, I'm hoping you get something out of this as well. Again, if not: Please tell me and I'll stop
jseadog1 wrote:
The fact of the matter is that Trump actually says things and acts like normal people, and does not sugar coat it. He is actually saying things that Americans want to hear, and he is one that will actually take action and try to make changes.
And i'll hate myself for this comparision, but so did Hitler. Moving swiftly away from that comparision now....
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Donald Drumpf has nailed the anti-political movement that has been steadily growing in westernised nations for a number of years now. He's not a politician by any stretch of the word, and that is exactly what a lot of people want. And to be fair i think that we do need less career politicians and more people who are out to do a good job for the people.
That doesn't mean Drumpf is the right man to be President. He seems to lack all basic understanding of what it means to be President. Half of what he says is pure fantasy that can never happen, and the other half if a mix of idiotic quotes, bafoonery and contradicting himself.
Alongside this are his Policies. They don't exist, or at least are poorly formed and entirely for PR. And he flip-flops on them more than anyone i've ever know. But not all his "policies", or rather his opinions, are awful. Sometimes he's pretty reasonable and understanding. It's just very infrequently and on the side issues.
And i guess that's a big thing. A lot of what he says and does is just unfathomable to non-Americans, but he has enough genuine points to sway enough people that he is a genuine candidate.
_______________________
I can recommend this webstie as a starting point to further research on the candidates. https://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm. It's not perfect but it gives a nice quick summary of candidates views and what those views were in the past. Supplement with further reading.
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Churchill
I have to agree with Avin here. On March 1, when Texas voted in the primaries, our school was a voting location, so I talked to some voters..
One voted for Cruz: "Obama's pro-muslim policies have (and i quote) 'dented' America and I think Cruz is the candidate that will return us to our Judeo-Christian values"
Another voted for Rubio: "Only Rubio is tough on foreign policy, if we're not careful, Russia will arm Iran and nuke the US, Trump will be too soft with Putin" (????????)
Clinton supporter: "I like Bernie, but Hillary advocates the same things that he does, except she cares more about women, and Bill can help her in the White House (I almost died here)"
I'm not gonna agree that Americans have a low IQ like Avin said, but the more and more I talk to it just seems like there is a larger percentage of Americans (compared to other countries) who just believe what their selected choice of media tells them, oblivious of the workings of the political system, etc.
baseballlover312, 06-03-14 : "Nuke Moscow...Don't worry Russia, we've got plenty of love to go around your cities"
Sarah Palin, 08-03-14 (CPAC, on Russian aggression) : "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke"
Big thanks to jdog for making this AMAZING userbar!
cunego59 wrote:
€: Also, if you find these long posts annoying, please tell me. I think I've said this in a previous post, I'm using this as an opportunity to try to frame my political opinions, mostly because I revise them in the process and they become clearer to me. Smug as I am, I'm hoping you get something out of this as well. Again, if not: Please tell me and I'll stop
Dont stop, i enjoy your comments and thoughts a lot, even when i dont agree with 100%, but that is only natural, as you said, biggest goal of modern society is to learn to live in peace with people of hundreds of different thoughts.
(i would say that biggest difference between us and our thoughts come from one of use being a bigger realist and one bigger utopist, gues who is who?).
Btw. i sense reflections from recent elections in Germany in your posts, i have seen how AfD rised up quickly on popularity in some "Bundeslander" and it could be really worrying. It was covered in czech media and here it is portraited as big loss of Merkels immigartion policy, is it same in german media? AfD is also directly supported by egocentric former czech president Vaclav Klaus.
As far as i am concerned, Merkel really went too far, she also should be more aware that extreme pro-immigration policy directly leads to rise of completely opposite extreme ideas. Germany is also very special in this case, because of what happened in 20th century, i guess some of the german people are loosing what i call "mantle of guilt", when they felt the guilt for earlier generations, that almost destroyed Europe and thus were extremely tolerant to multiculture society?
@jseadog: Fact that many americans actually want to hear what Trump is saying is actually even more worryfying, they (and you too, if you are one of them) should pull the head from their asses and start thinking. Are you aware that whole idea of United States is based on mass immigration and that you have become economical (and not only that) superpower thanks to people that fled from Europe? I wont even start much on mass murdering of native people of the continent, maybe you are afraid you will have the same destiny they were served by your ancestors?
This is how i imagine a Trumps supporter:
Spoiler
Edit: Also, sorry for generalisation about the IQ of americans, it was rather pointed on blind supporters of Trump and media propaganda, not in general. You have so many inhabitants, that there are simply more idiots in numbers.
It comes from position when i dont understand why any country and its inhabitants need to feel "great" and better than anybody else, just because they have stripes and whatever. While you make oaths on imaginary person and fairy tales book... Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 15-03-2016 07:47
(i would say that biggest difference between us and our thoughts come from one of use being a bigger realist and one bigger utopist, gues who is who?).
Btw. i sense reflections from recent elections in Germany in your posts, i have seen how AfD rised up quickly on popularity in some "Bundeslander" and it could be really worrying. It was covered in czech media and here it is portraited as big loss of Merkels immigartion policy, is it same in german media? AfD is also directly supported by egocentric former czech president Vaclav Klaus.
As far as i am concerned, Merkel really went too far, she also should be more aware that extreme pro-immigration policy directly leads to rise of completely opposite extreme ideas. Germany is also very special in this case, because of what happened in 20th century, i guess some of the german people are loosing what i call "mantle of guilt", when they felt the guilt for earlier generations, that almost destroyed Europe and thus were extremely tolerant to multiculture society?
Thanks for the kind words. I do think of myself as a realist, actually, but I think it's very important to have ideals, and to keep them in mind. Often times, you have to act against them when it's practical, and that is fine. But if you lose sight of them completely, you become more vulnerable to immoral or opportunistic thoughts, so I like to remind myself of them from time to time
As for Merkel and the AfD, yes, lots of the success of the AfD is attributed to Merkel's politics. But weirdly, the leaders of the social democrats and the green party that won two of the three state elections this Sunday ran with an agenda mostly supporting Merkel. So Merkel's politics damage her own party (the CDU), but those who support it in other parties benefit from it. It's the first time a green party is the strongest party in a state (I think), and their candidate is probably their most conservative green politician you'll find. Very strange situation.
I think it might be because many of the regional CDU politicians tried to capitalize on opposing Merkel by making populist statements to get some of the voters back from the AfD, but instead their moderate voters turned to the social democrats or greens.
On that "mantle of guilt" thing: There's an expression loosely translated to the "Nazi stick", a metaphoric stick that is swung at anyone expressing sentiments that can be interpreted as xenophobic, instantly labeling them Nazis. Lots of people feel they cannot voice their concerns anymore without being called Nazis, as if there was some sort of taboo.
But imo that's pretty stupid. In my experience, it's mostly the people with those "concerns" that fabricate this alleged taboo to display their statements as brave and anti-mainstream, and also to dismiss all critical counter arguments as just obeying the taboo.
I think that the "guilt" is being used similarly. Most people who are involved in memorial work or education, for instance, speak of a "historic responsibility". Everyone with a half-intact brain knows that today's generation is not to blame for WWII and Nazi crimes. But living in a society that knows about the consequences of demagogic and authoritarian regimes brings the responsibility to be extra aware of the dangers that populist and extreme parties pose. "Nip it in the buds" and "Never forget" are expressions that come to mind.
But right wing populists use the amount of education and commemoration and the constant reminders to say: "Look at them trying to guilt us into abandoning our German heritage and culture!", and stylize their xenophobia as a resistance against the establishment. Which is a problem that hasn't sufficiently been approached.
To add to the Trump debate, here's some educated Trump supporters:
A comment on the video made a good point in my opinion to understand at least part of the Trump support:
Its actually not hard to see where they are coming from. The majority of us who take offense with what Trump says does so because of empathy. We feel for the Mexicans, we feel for the Muslim people. We feel offended with racists remarks. However, there is a group of people in our society who are born or raise without the ability to empathize with others and so are not offended with Trump's remarks.
That surely doesn't apply to everybody, but I imagine it could to quite a few.
jseadog1 wrote:
The fact of the matter is that Trump actually says things and acts like normal people, and does not sugar coat it. He is actually saying things that Americans want to hear, and he is one that will actually take action and try to make changes.
"Trump actually says things and acts like normal people, and does not sugar coat it. He is actually saying things that Americans want to hear"
It is easy to say things the people want to hear when you constantly lie which is exactly what Trump has done this entire campaign. So I have to ask you, how is that a good thing and a desirable quality in a potential leader?
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it's a corporatocracy of some sort.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
