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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:18
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Tour de France Champion
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@Ollfardh
Good spot.
82SP is definitely enough, Kittel in form is quicker than both Cav and Greipel. The REC is a fair point though, should've been higher(and Cav's slightly lower). However the impact of that will not be too huge(especially with Greipel having better climbing stats so he will recover better than most sprinters anyway considering he'll lose less energy)
Greipel was on the verge of another downgrade before Le Tour so it says something about why he's ''only'' 82SP at the moment. Le Tour isn't everything after all 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:25
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World Champion
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Well, I think he was the best sprinter all season, not just in le Tour. But 4 stage wins vs 1 for Cav does mean something, and I don't think you can still consider Kittel as the undisputed nr. 1 sprinter.
ANd I don't agree with the better climbing stats of Greipel, he's the only sprinter who fails to get over the Poggio year after year.
To be honest, I thought it was over for Greipel as well. But he has proven me wrong this season. He has the lowest acceleration, so I would put him on shared highest sprinting stat. Or at least up his flat after all the working he did for his team in the spring.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:30
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Directeur Sportif
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Jesleyh wrote:
@Ollfardh
Good spot.
82SP is definitely enough, Kittel in form is quicker than both Cav and Greipel. The REC is a fair point though, should've been higher(and Cav's slightly lower). However the impact of that will not be too huge(especially with Greipel having better climbing stats so he will recover better than most sprinters anyway considering he'll lose less energy)
Greipel was on the verge of another downgrade before Le Tour so it says something about why he's ''only'' 82SP at the moment. Le Tour isn't everything after all
That´s a good point, but for me it´s Kittel>Greipel>Cav>Kristoff, Degenkolb,...
so why not downgrade Cavendish by one, so taht you have 83,82,81, Kristoff maybe on 80 as well.
Cavendish has much more ACC than Greipel which will make him the better sprinter in game for now... |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:30
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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While the Poggio thing can be true, Greipel has been up there in a few of the tougher finishes(often fighting out with said Degenkolb and Sagan) as well, or at least had an edge there over other ''pure'' sprinters.
We did up his FL and I think 78 would be too much, but it's difficult to say.
Greipel was not top notch this season if you'd ask me. Sure, he did get quite some wins, but most of those were in very weak fields. But in stronger ones(Giro most notably) he was not that dominant.
His TdF got him 82SP, but it is not enough for 83SP.
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 20:06
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:33
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World Champion
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For arguments sake, I generally agree with stats anyway but
I don't remember 2013 sprints that well so faulty stats but
2013: Kittel 3 v 2 Cav v 1 Greipel, everybody up in their pants about Kittel possibly being as good as Cav with Greipel behind
2014: Kittel 4 v 1 Greipel v No Cav, who stays near to Kittel anyway. Everybody up in their pants about this confirming Kittel without another round of him beating Cav
2015: Greipel 4 v 1 Cav v No Kittel, who stays above the two anyway. Everybody up in their pants about how Greipel deserves... Slight boosts?
Tour isn't everything... Since when?
Edited by jandal7 on 06-08-2015 23:54
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:35
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
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Jesleyh wrote:
While the Poggio thing can be true, Greipel has been up there in a few of the tougher finishes(often fighting out with said Degenkolb and Sagan) as well, or at least had an edge there over other ''pure'' sprinters.
We did up his FL and I think 78 would be too much, but it's difficult to say.
Greipel was not top notch this season if you'd ask me. Sure, he did get quite some wins, but most of those were in very weak fields. But in stronger ones(Giro most notably) he was not that dominant.
His TdF got him 82SP, but it is not enough for 83SP.
I agree, but what have Cavendish and Kittel shown this season?
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:36
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Team Leader
Posts: 7357
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Fell of my chair when I saw Sagans hill stat 
Also why would Martin have a higher fighter stat than Gilbert? Gilbert should never have less than 83. And 81 hill aswell.
And Boonen has not finished a GT since 2007 so he should have one of the lowest REC stats in the WT. Cancellara never finishes GTs anymore either btw.
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:43
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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@Ollfardh
Cavendish showed no signs of weakness beforehand, winning(or at least coming 2nd) in almost all of the flat sprints he participated in.
Kittel has a very valid excuse of course. We could not see what we normally see of him and it is safe to assume he wouldn't be weaker. This is what we often do for riders who have ruined their season with injuries.
@Spilak
Sagan should not be made too overpowered, all his other stats help him a shitload.
Regarding Martin and Gilbert, well, Martin really shows his face often this season, but well, I find discussing Top FTR stats for differences of 1 FTR a bit useless to be honest. Maybe you are right. 
@Jandal
I guess that is a fair point? I can not remember previous Tour discussions .
I would not say it is a small boost, it still makes Greipel possibly 2nd best sprinter(3rd if you only look at SP/ACC though).
Kittel was a way more drastic change back then. He went from a good to a world-class sprinter in 21 days. This is not a huge change, Greipel has proved how good he is before(and has also proved to be less than KIttel)
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 06-08-2015 23:54
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One more remark, it's about Pelucchi: His 'back-up' stats are low which I think is correct but his sprint stat should be couple points higher cause he has shown more than once that when he makes it to the finish in the peloton he can beat guys like Greipel and Kittel regularly. Something that can't be said about Cocquard, Demare, Viviani, Nizzolo or even Degenkolb.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 00:07
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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I'm not sure Gallopin should have 77 mountain,. In theory I would agree, but when playing through the TDF in V.08, he did almost exactly the same thing as real life (which suprised me). He was great in the first few mountain stages and then went away, just life irl. So to change it seems strange. I also don't agree on G. Thomas.
But what I've learned is that it is really stupid to put so much effort into yelling about each and every stat.
PCM Daily gives us a great basis and matrix, and then we can edit the little things for ourselves. That's how I see it.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| PeterRyder |
Posted on 07-08-2015 00:54
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Domestique
Posts: 540
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Why is Michael Rogers 77 MO?
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 06:04
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
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Most State is very good but ...
Agree. His acceleration is truly lethal!
Froome Hill 79
Froome ACC 79
Contador ACC 77
Tony Martin DH 76
Cavendish SPR 81
Kristoff SPR 80
Nibali MO 81
Kittel REC 80
Greipel REC 76
Cavendish REC 78
And where is Hesjedal? He was very strong in the last week.
Good question. Rogers and Kreuziger has been bad in year.
Edited by Arberg27 on 07-08-2015 06:40
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 07:05
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
Joined: 13-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Why does Landa have worse back-up stats than Aru but better mountain? And only 1 difference with Contador as well? We all saw what Contador did on stage 16 of the Giro. He couldn't have done that with only 1 stat point difference. And you can't say it was daily shape cuz eventually Landa won the stage. Otherwise only small disagreements like Sagan's hill, which I'll edit for myself. Thank you guys. |
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 08:59
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Grand Tour Specialist
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FroomeDog99 wrote:
Would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind Dennis' stats. Personally I'd give him higher that 78TT because of the Tour win, which was more of a cross between a TT and prologue and I can't see him winning a 14km TT against all of the top time-triallists with 78. The fact it was the fastest TT in Tour history probably backs that up.
Also I'd give him a hill boost based on his TDU win. Can't see him finishing 2nd on Willunga and winning the GC with 73 Hi.
Think you missed this Jesley, could you explain why Dennis got the stats in question? |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 07-08-2015 09:19
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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@Froome
Oops, I did, was busy typing my answer on other things yesterday night and therefore missed your post.
Dennis has 78TT because the Tour ITT is actually more of a prologue than a TT. 14km means PRL weights about 60/65% and TT 35/40%.
Obviously he would not always win it with his stats, but this is more of a one-off than a consistent Top TTist, if you ask me, think everything just went perfect for him that day ''Daily form +4'' .
@PeterRyder
For doing some good domestique work. Although don't be fooled, there's a big amount of riders on 77MO, just can't see them on the screen.
@Froome ACC
Simple. What we've tried to simulate here is that Froome rides like Froome.
As you can see we gave Froome a lot of RES. It is because of his riding style. In some stages we saw Quintana attack but Froome not following (maybe he was able to, but he simply proceeded to look at his stem) but instead riding his own pace.
Froome's ACC is a very hard stat to assign, but we thought this was the best solution.
@Arberg
Contador's ACC definitely is top and that is a weapon he can use. His attacks this Tour haven't been too powerful but obviously he was suffering from his Giro - Tour double so we will not be too hard for him.
@Dark
Well, Landa was the better climber this Giro and his performance 3 week long was enough for him to be at the better climbers.
However, his backup stats are very notable. Believe me if I tell you that Aru will do better than Landa in GTs in about 80% of the cases.
Think I've covered all.
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-08-2015 09:43
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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Sagan still underrated, mainly in sprint and hills. 
Cavendish is on the other hand overrated, same with Kittel, they should be on par with Greipel or even lower.
I see still the same strange rule applied. For someone whole bad year does not mean a shit, because he was good few years back and for someone, you just decrese him faster, because of bad results. It lacks consistency a bit.
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| Miguel98 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 09:46
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World Champion
Posts: 10497
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Hills? Sagan is not that good in hills anymore. |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 10:03
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Team Leader
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He was one of three best riders on every hill stage in le tour.
Riders like Slagter, Vanendert and Van Garderen all have 2 more in hill. That's ridiculous imo.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-08-2015 10:11
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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Really? So maybe you were sleeping during the Tour, but how on earth can Sagan get top5 in game with 76hill in stages like Mende or Mur de Bretagne, where he was irl challenging guys like Valverde, Gallopin, Vuillermoz?
With 0.8V stats in game, i never see Sagan challenging podiums in those types of stages because of his low hill stat. It wont change with 76 hill, it is even lower then he had before i believe, or same?
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 10:17
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
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77/78 hills for Sagan is perfect for me. Won't do superbly at the Ardennes but will survive and be good at hill stages at le Tour. |
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