I want to raise a discussion about how a new Cycling Manager series should be designed
In short I would like to hear your opinion on the following:
- How much does Multiplayer matter if it could be sacrificed for a better Career mode?
- What features do you miss in career mode? (if you look at PCM)
- What features should be changed in career mode?
- Do you prefer ultra-realism before fun in a manager game or the other way around?
this discussion is very important and will be considered for a currently unannounced project.
T-Photon wrote:
- What features do you miss in career mode? (if you look at PCM)
being able to change teams at the end of the season
how would you like that scenario to happen?
1) you screw up the season and the sponsor fires you
2) you leave yourself and the team continues the way you leave it
3) both options should be available.
Making "transfers" like in older PCM's. I know it never really happens, but it was always fun to sign a rider that just always renews their contract. As a feature I miss.
The only time I play Multiplayer is for PCMdaily related games. Armada is just horrible imo, and they basically scraped the useful friends feature.
I prefer ultra-realism, but realistically it would not be possible. The fewer arcadey elements the better though.
Would be nice to have real time stages, but also with the possibility to speed up the race to maybe x30 or even more, just like with the game EuroTour/PcCiclismo. That way climbs and sprints would probably be more enjoyable.
The 3D race is pretty perfect... ok a few minor AI issues at times but on the whole its pretty damn good.
The management part is as basic as possible for a manager game.
The management side of the game needs a complete re-do.
As in just start over on the whole aspect. There is not one part of the management side that can be improved 100%.
Oh and they could re-do the stats matrix. The current one works but is a bit simple.
Two games to take as inspiration, FIFA and FM.
FIFA as the management is simple, but effective. Every part works well and has a clear role and impact on the club.
FM is just the best management game out there. Its comprehensive yet easy to pick up. If there are bits you dont understand/dont have time for then you can ignore them without affecting the progression of the game.
I would rather they re did the management side of the game entirely than any new additions to the racing.
I think most of any pcm community would agree that we all want a vastly improved management aspect. Even if there are no updates to the 3D race for a couple of years.
Also i cant decide which of the above aspects most important. Because without any of them the game would become utter shite.
@Valverde321: If you refers to the player being able to offer a contract to riders who is already under a contract with another team I miss that feature as well
it was awesome to give a team 50.000€ to free a rider and get the one you always dreamed of having at your team.
@TheManxMissile: I agree that the career game needs a major overhaul and yes every poll option is important and will be given a fair share of work. Just want to know which feature should get the most amount of manhours.
Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated! Game design will always benefit from the combined opinion of Developers and Players Edited by T-Photon on 06-01-2013 00:53
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I voted for sponsors, since, because of the money, they are kind of the ones who dictate the teams, so being able to interact with them is key. If I could choose more than one, I'd also have voted for transfers, rider management and superior AI. Thinking about it now, perhaps finances, but I don't even have the conception of a cycling-manager game with finances aspect since this part is so bad-elaborated in PCM. However it could be a very nice aspect to manage, specially when playing with smaller teams. Buying bikes or setting up deals with sponsors for them, paying travels, having race organizers pay travels when they want teams to be interested, fighting for races who give good paychecks, that'd actually be pretty fun indeed.
- How much does Multiplayer matter if it could be sacrificed for a better Career mode?
For me, very little. On a scale from 1 to 10, I'd give 1.5 for Multiplayer/better career. I'm not really the biggest fan of online playing, especially if the offline is good enough.
- What features do you miss in career mode? (if you look at PCM)
More interaction with nearly everything. Not only sponsors, but also riders, race organizers, press.
For example, riders: somebody once wrote in a PCM-suggestion thread (I think) that, in PCM, riders are nothing more than a dozen of stats and a picture. And that's absolutely true imo. Riders have no wishes, no personality, you have no interaction with them neither in-race nor outside it because they don't simply exists - they are just stats. I'd like to have riders that express their wish to ride certain races, or that'd be mad at me for keeping them as a team-mate, and thus either perform worse in 3D or train worse (as in form/development). Or riders that have more terms in their contracts other than "sprinter", such as asking leadership in a certain race or asking for other riders to also be signed or team-mates that can support him (in case of the big leaders).
There should also be more interation with the other teams and other riders, mainly in 3D racing.
A missed feature in PCM's career mode which should be simpler than the above is more reality in close races. For example, a rider that races in the USA on Saturday shouldn't be able to race again on Italy on Sunday. Also, something that has been suggested several times is about the outside race fatigue. A rider that wins a 220 km classic on Saturday can hardly be fresh to win another classic on Sunday (Omloop and KBK is the classic example of PCM iirc). Likewise a rider that wins a hard Giro can hardly win the Tour.
- What features should be changed in career mode?
More complex finances, and I think I've sort said the rest above
- Do you prefer ultra-realism before fun in a manager game or the other way around?
Well, at least for me, most of the fun comes with realism. So while taking Contador to win the 3 GTs in a year might be a bit fun, it's not realist, so it's not that nice. The same for winning the TdF with a rider like Rui Costa. So realism, at least in terms of results, is good. But of course realism in results doesn't mean that the favorites will always win, as seen f.e. in Zaugg winning 2011's Giro di Lombardia. However, the point of most games is to be fun for the players, so if there's some realism effects that spoil the fun, they I'd consider trying to balance fun vs realism. But, honestly, I can't think of any that'd do that Edited by lluuiiggii on 06-01-2013 01:50
I voted for superior AI, although I think that and the first item on transfers are very connected. (By AI I am assuming you mean management AI not race AI). I agree with the earlier comment that the race AI is OK, it could be tweaked but works most of the time.
Many of these items are connected so I was tempted to vote for the last choice.
There are a few that I think are less important - media and staff interaction are nice but less essential and I don't feel any need for manager RPG elements. I never play multi=player so don't care about that.
I am for realism in the race results and the transfers but I think there is a limit to the detail needed. For example, I don't need to spend time managing my team's travel costs. So I think the way some financial stuff like travel and staff salaries are handled now is fine.
I don't agree that we need to be able to transfer riders under contract, or at least that wouldn't be a priority. I think it would be hard to set up in a way that didn't become a unrealistic, happens rarely in IRL and can be simulated through the editor if desired.
One other area I think could be improved is the AI management of rider fitness - I think that would improve the game challenge and the realism. It does OK for big races but not for smaller ones.
Related to that agree with lluuiiggii's point on between-race fatigue. Also it seems like there should be a season long "form" value - to replicate Gilbert's 11 season vs 12 season.
I'd like the option that if you are getting relegated/not getting promoted you can sign riders and gain half their points. More realistic sponsor goals would also be cool. Also I'd scrap multiplayer and focus on career mode
Edited by FroomeDog99 on 06-01-2013 11:22
Well, I've voted for a better AI but also transfert, finances and sponsor must be improved a lot by Cyanide. Reading what lluuiiggii said about rider is true and after playing FIFA (that isn't a management game but have this great feature) the rider can ask you to play a game or to be sold because they want go to another team (Suarez i hate you!): they seems human and not only stats!
About sponsor part i share again lluuiiggi's idea. Talk with them, decide wich race take part for the money or because it's in their nation etc...
Then the transfer part must be improved. Too many unrealistic transfert imo.
For the career mode i would suggest the outside fatigue too. This is a feature present in all sport game! Then i would like to have in the game the media feature but it's not so important.
About multyplayer, i think that Armada is the worst thing i've ever seen. Honestly i prefer the offline, in fact id ìf it's good i'll surely spend more time in my career than in online game.
BTW As this is a management game the fun corresponds with the realism.
Emotions! The riders are riding without emotions on their faces and it looks they are doing a pokerface all the time. If your rider crosses the line as first he looks as though he is listening to a boring presentation.
you've got my general opinion... use FM as a base
but you also wanted answers to these
- How much does Multiplayer matter if it could be sacrificed for a better Career mode?
Literally not at all. I would rather have a great Career mode than anything else. Armada is the worst thing ever. Any multiplayer should firstly be 3D racing. Then only if there is time online career might be good. So you can have several real managers in one season. But this should only come after everything else.
- What features do you miss in career mode? (if you look at PCM)
Same as lluuiiggii. The staff and riders are just numbers. There needs to be a lot more interaction with both staff and riders. Collaborate over calendars and training. Send to them to a race they dont like and they get unhappy and their performance drops.
There needs to be more interaction with sponsors. The budget should change year to year. Key things should be realistic goals, key races and key riders.
Transfers need a bit of a rework. Contracts should be more in depth. More options than just sprinter, and other new clauses should be added.
Out of race fatigue of course.
More races and More teams are always good additions.
Oh and i think there should be dynamic stats. I mean, in FIFA, the stats can vary a bit from game to game, so the riders stats should vary race to race. This can depend on happiness, route, fitness etc.
- What features should be changed in career mode?
Transfers need a rework. Offering a contract should be more like FM. You make a detailed offer (more than a wage and length). They make a counter etc. Also the transfers need to be more realistic in general.
General interaction as i said.
Just lots more depth.
- Do you prefer ultra-realism before fun in a manager game or the other way around?
Not ultra-realism, but not cya-logic.
It should be realistic like FM, but fun like FIFA.
Some random stuff is great and makes a change. The real world is not always predictable.
Well, actually most of the things I could vote on should be great.
I voted for Talents and Scouting, since I really like seaching for big talents in U23, and scouting them, and then maybe signing them.. There's just maybe a lack of U23 races, and things like sponsoring do not have a single effect.
Another great thing(only if there will be more U23 races) would be that you can assign a scout to follow a race. He can then report about the race, and tell the manager which riders were really good(A strong break, maybe took many KoM points, great leadout) so doesn't always have to be the guys who you see in the results. Not sure if that's all possible though...
I think most of the things in the poll would be important, but the most important ones for me(except talents and scouting) would be Superior AI, transfers, finances, and maybe media etc. would be nice too.
I'm also a big supporter of that RPG part, but not sure if that's possible in this kind of game...
And I agree with most of the earlier comments.
I prefer fun, but realism makes it fun for me. It should personally not be ultra-realism for me, but a bit more realistic wouldn't do any harm.
Oh and about Multiplayer vs Career. I play 30 times more career than multiplayer. I wouldn't mind if Multiplayer would even disappear if that would make the Career way better...
Edited by Jesleyh on 06-01-2013 11:40
lluuiiggii wrote:
I voted for sponsors, since, because of the money, they are kind of the ones who dictate the teams, so being able to interact with them is key. If I could choose more than one, I'd also have voted for transfers, rider management and superior AI. Thinking about it now, perhaps finances, but I don't even have the conception of a cycling-manager game with finances aspect since this part is so bad-elaborated in PCM. However it could be a very nice aspect to manage, specially when playing with smaller teams. Buying bikes or setting up deals with sponsors for them, paying travels, having race organizers pay travels when they want teams to be interested, fighting for races who give good paychecks, that'd actually be pretty fun indeed.
- How much does Multiplayer matter if it could be sacrificed for a better Career mode?
For me, very little. On a scale from 1 to 10, I'd give 1.5 for Multiplayer/better career. I'm not really the biggest fan of online playing, especially if the offline is good enough.
- What features do you miss in career mode? (if you look at PCM)
More interaction with nearly everything. Not only sponsors, but also riders, race organizers, press.
For example, riders: somebody once wrote in a PCM-suggestion thread (I think) that, in PCM, riders are nothing more than a dozen of stats and a picture. And that's absolutely true imo. Riders have no wishes, no personality, you have no interaction with them neither in-race nor outside it because they don't simply exists - they are just stats. I'd like to have riders that express their wish to ride certain races, or that'd be mad at me for keeping them as a team-mate, and thus either perform worse in 3D or train worse (as in form/development). Or riders that have more terms in their contracts other than "sprinter", such as asking leadership in a certain race or asking for other riders to also be signed or team-mates that can support him (in case of the big leaders).
There should also be more interation with the other teams and other riders, mainly in 3D racing.
A missed feature in PCM's career mode which should be simpler than the above is more reality in close races. For example, a rider that races in the USA on Saturday shouldn't be able to race again on Italy on Sunday. Also, something that has been suggested several times is about the outside race fatigue. A rider that wins a 220 km classic on Saturday can hardly be fresh to win another classic on Sunday (Omloop and KBK is the classic example of PCM iirc). Likewise a rider that wins a hard Giro can hardly win the Tour.
- What features should be changed in career mode?
More complex finances, and I think I've sort said the rest above
- Do you prefer ultra-realism before fun in a manager game or the other way around?
Well, at least for me, most of the fun comes with realism. So while taking Contador to win the 3 GTs in a year might be a bit fun, it's not realist, so it's not that nice. The same for winning the TdF with a rider like Rui Costa. So realism, at least in terms of results, is good. But of course realism in results doesn't mean that the favorites will always win, as seen f.e. in Zaugg winning 2011's Giro di Lombardia. However, the point of most games is to be fun for the players, so if there's some realism effects that spoil the fun, they I'd consider trying to balance fun vs realism. But, honestly, I can't think of any that'd do that
I believe that all of the features are important. In my opinion there is no need for another incomplete cycling manager game.
Obviously every gamer has other priorities, so it would be best to have options what parts I want to manage myself and which parts of the game should be simulated/automated. I am pretty sure the football manager from EA uses such a system.
- How much does Multiplayer matter if it could be sacrificed for a better Career mode?
Im playing PCM since 09 and I have never played a single minute on multiplayer. I dont care at all about that, for me all what mathers is Career mode.
- What features do you miss in career mode? (if you look at PCM)
The option of been fired if u dont do it good or to change Team at the end of the season.
The option for retired riders to come agian as young riders (like in Pro Evolution Soccer)
- What features should be changed in career mode?
I think the game has to been redone. A lot of things doesnt work fine or doesnt work at all. Its not that hard to take a look at Fifa Manager 13. And please for those people like me that play really long Careers (10 - 20 years) after 9 years when all the stars are retired the game doesnt make fun anymore. Ridiculous salaries, no new talents, sponsors retired all, its a mess.
- Do you prefer ultra-realism before fun in a manager game or the other way around?
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