I'm a little bit confused by all this talk about how well Contador and Schleck would have done against Sky.
Contador did dope, didn't he? Or did someone just suspend him for fun? Not sure why people are expecting him to be as good when he comes back. By that logic, Sky should be afraid if Michael Rasmussen ever came back to the Tour.
As for Schleck, well, he lost to Evans last year... and even if he could beat Wiggins/Froome on the climbs (which I doubt, especially in Froome's case), he'd lose a ton of time in the TTs to both of them.
MikhailM wrote:
Contador did dope, didn't he? Or did someone just suspend him for fun? Not sure why people are expecting him to be as good when he comes back. By that logic, Sky should be afraid if Michael Rasmussen ever came back to the Tour.
Yes, technically he doped
but i think his ban is more to serve as a message
the amount of banned substance was 1/40th of the allowable limit, which is pitiful imo
so i think a 6 month ban (effectively) is more to serve as a message to future dopers/clean up the sport, rather than a vendetta against them
I can't see a noticable drop in performance, it at all, so i'd still expect him to win the Vuelta easily
samdiatmh wrote:
the amount of banned substance was 1/40th of the allowable limit, which is pitiful imo
Actually, the allowed amount of Clembuterol in your body is 0,0000000000000 (keep inserting zeros until you think it's enough ). Well, it's 0.
samdiatmh wrote:
I can't see a noticable drop in performance, it at all, so i'd still expect him to win the Vuelta easily
Agreed. Unless tragedy strucks in his way, Contador will pwn the Vuelta easily. With some luck, he might even beat Delio Rodriguez biggest margin of victory record of 30 minutes and 8 seconds
samdiatmh wrote:
the amount of banned substance was 1/40th of the allowable limit, which is pitiful imo
Actually, the allowed amount of Clembuterol in your body is 0,0000000000000 (keep inserting zeros until you think it's enough ). Well, it's 0.
samdiatmh wrote:
I can't see a noticable drop in performance, it at all, so i'd still expect him to win the Vuelta easily
Agreed. Unless tragedy strucks in his way, Contador will pwn the Vuelta easily. With some luck, he might even beat Delio Rodriguez biggest margin of victory record of 30 minutes and 8 seconds
Yes and do you know what the effects of Clembuterol are that are performance enhancing in regards to the sport of cycling? WADA has a very diverse list of banned substances but even thought they are banned in all sports, they effect every sport in much different ways.
Just like ALCOHOL is banned in shooting competitions because it is a performance enhancer. I am sure it would be an enhancer in all other sports as well.
Alakagom wrote: Tbh I still think the competition this year makes them look much better then they are.
Contador and Schleck will really show how good Froome is. Not from this Tour.
And what about the ridiculous numbers? What about March,May and June for Wiggo? I know, shite riders were there right? And what about Froomey the Great? Ahhh...parasites.
Aquarius wrote:
Yeah sure, that's why Sky are climbing faster this year than any favourite last year. Surely that'll make them spectators.
It's good to have such certainties. Well...
kumazan wrote:
That's quite funny. I remember watching the 1999 Tour de France, after the first long ITT, the Spanish commentators were talking about how suprising it was Armstrong's dominance. He had smashed both TTs, and had won massive time on, specially, Zülle after the stage with the Passage du Gois. They were confident that, come the mountains, Armstrong wouldn't be able to keep up with the best. Then Sestriere happened.
I'm not old enough to have seen that live but that was definitely a WTF performance. A guy who had never climbed with the top 30 climbers or so in any mountain ever, suddenly decides "those two elite climbers up ahead have gained too much time for my taste" and just closes the gap in seconds like they're standing still.
Then he decides to up the pace without actually attacking, and nobody can hold his wheel.
Ridiculous
EDIT: This after winning the prologue and then dominating the first long time trial. A good analogy to show what kind of rider he was before that would be if you imagine Gasparotto or Gerrans doing that. Ridiculous indeed.
But, do you know who was still considered as the biggest G.T. talent back then ? (of course you do, it's a rethorical question) : Jan Ullrich.
I naturally assumed, back then, that on the first occasion Ullrich would crush that random American guy who had just won because of a lack of proper opposition, and wasn't even a natural born G.T. talent.
But does anyone else in all seriousness find it strange that Boasson Hagen, a sprinter/classics rider (not a bad TT'er) could lead the peloton over the HC Col du Madeleine, decimating the peloton, then do something similar over the Tormulet? I know the pace on the Tormulet wasn't really hard or anything, but still.
I will bet my whole house that neither A.C or A.S will be dropped by Sky.
Judging by your statistical numbers, which applies for the whole group who followed Froome and Wiggins at the most stages, especially Nibali, VDB maybe even T.Pinot, then you also conclude from the numbers, that they will drop A.C and A.S.
Do you really believe that they will drop the two best climbers in the world ?
The question is not whether Sky could drop Contador and Schleck or not, because they don't even have to try. The question is, can Contador and Schleck drop them and then gain enough time to stay ahead after the time trials? The Sky guys don't have to follow, they merely have to limit their losses (and I'm leaning toward thinking this only applies to Wiggins, Froome might be able to hang on most of the time).
kumazan wrote:
That's quite funny. I remember watching the 1999 Tour de France, after the first long ITT, the Spanish commentators were talking about how suprising it was Armstrong's dominance. He had smashed both TTs, and had won massive time on, specially, Zülle after the stage with the Passage du Gois. They were confident that, come the mountains, Armstrong wouldn't be able to keep up with the best. Then Sestriere happened.
I'm not old enough to have seen that live but that was definitely a WTF performance. A guy who had never climbed with the top 30 climbers or so in any mountain ever, suddenly decides "those two elite climbers up ahead have gained too much time for my taste" and just closes the gap in seconds like they're standing still.
Then he decides to up the pace without actually attacking, and nobody can hold his wheel.
Ridiculous
EDIT: This after winning the prologue and then dominating the first long time trial. A good analogy to show what kind of rider he was before that would be if you imagine Gasparotto or Gerrans doing that. Ridiculous indeed.
But, do you know who was still considered as the biggest G.T. talent back then ? (of course you do, it's a rethorical question) : Jan Ullrich.
I naturally assumed, back then, that on the first occasion Ullrich would crush that random American guy who had just won because of a lack of proper opposition, and wasn't even a natural born G.T. talent.
We all know what happened the next six years...
Well i do know who it was because Jan Ullrich was my favourite rider of all time. In 1996 he litterally was leading across every damn mountain for Bjarne Riis, he was definately the absolute strongest rider that year and. And the 1997 he finally won after a fantastic race. The stage where he leads over a couple of mountains and then attacks virenque pantai riis etc on the last climb. Damn i miss him , he was maybe the biggest victim of Operation Puerto.
However it wasnt just his opponent who ruined his possible tour victoriess. It was his life style. Eating like a pig all year, always being overweight, not wanting to train, partying to much, taking coke/amphetamine etc.
Lance's transformation from sprinter to climber and tt monster after his disease is just undescribeable,
I did say that Froome might be able to hang on sometime on Contador and Schleck, but i really dont see him beat them at all. I dont see him driving from them, but ofc he is the most likely rider to be the third wheel when these to guys attack. Wiggins wont stand a chance, mark my words.
Froome will race this years vuelta and this will show some kind of strenght comparison and relationship.
Froome hasnt ride that much this year, neither last year, so if he is riding the vuelta and gets dropped i will not accept any "he is too tired" arguments.
And the guy who used the logic about Michael Rasmussen and Contador is just absolutely dumb.
Contador did ride first couple of months this year, and whole last year. He has only missed 5 months of racing. Michael Rasmussen did miss two whole year, and will never come back. He was blacklisted , nobody did dare to touch.
I can not see how Contador should loose any of his talent or riding skills.
Stop being foolish.
Basso, Vino, Kaschekin and Valverde and those like's did all miss between 1-2 years racing. Vino did never became as good again in the mountains as before. Basso did become the very same basso who was riding for Fassa Bortolo. The Basso riding for CSC had actually develep an acceleration the last two years where he could follow armstrong.
Same goes for Kaschekin.
Valverde will be back at his normal level next year.
I really miss elegant powerfull real climbes like Contador, Mayo and Heras.
When they attack it is/was very beautifull and epic.
kumazan wrote:
That's quite funny. I remember watching the 1999 Tour de France, after the first long ITT, the Spanish commentators were talking about how suprising it was Armstrong's dominance. He had smashed both TTs, and had won massive time on, specially, Zülle after the stage with the Passage du Gois. They were confident that, come the mountains, Armstrong wouldn't be able to keep up with the best. Then Sestriere happened.
I'm not old enough to have seen that live but that was definitely a WTF performance. A guy who had never climbed with the top 30 climbers or so in any mountain ever, suddenly decides "those two elite climbers up ahead have gained too much time for my taste" and just closes the gap in seconds like they're standing still.
Then he decides to up the pace without actually attacking, and nobody can hold his wheel.
Ridiculous
EDIT: This after winning the prologue and then dominating the first long time trial. A good analogy to show what kind of rider he was before that would be if you imagine Gasparotto or Gerrans doing that. Ridiculous indeed.
But, do you know who was still considered as the biggest G.T. talent back then ? (of course you do, it's a rethorical question) : Jan Ullrich.
I naturally assumed, back then, that on the first occasion Ullrich would crush that random American guy who had just won because of a lack of proper opposition, and wasn't even a natural born G.T. talent.
We all know what happened the next six years...
Well i do know who it was because Jan Ullrich was my favourite rider of all time. In 1996 he litterally was leading across every damn mountain for Bjarne Riis, he was definately the absolute strongest rider that year and. And the 1997 he finally won after a fantastic race. The stage where he leads over a couple of mountains and then attacks virenque pantai riis etc on the last climb. Damn i miss him , he was maybe the biggest victim of Operation Puerto.
However it wasnt just his opponent who ruined his possible tour victoriess. It was his life style. Eating like a pig all year, always being overweight, not wanting to train, partying to much, taking coke/amphetamine etc.
Lance's transformation from sprinter to climber and tt monster after his disease is just undescribeable,
I did say that Froome might be able to hang on sometime on Contador and Schleck, but i really dont see him beat them at all. I dont see him driving from them, but ofc he is the most likely rider to be the third wheel when these to guys attack. Wiggins wont stand a chance, mark my words.
Froome will race this years vuelta and this will show some kind of strenght comparison and relationship.
Froome hasnt ride that much this year, neither last year, so if he is riding the vuelta and gets dropped i will not accept any "he is too tired" arguments.
And the guy who used the logic about Michael Rasmussen and Contador is just absolutely dumb.
Contador did ride first couple of months this year, and whole last year. He has only missed 5 months of racing. Michael Rasmussen did miss two whole year, and will never come back. He was blacklisted , nobody did dare to touch.
I can not see how Contador should loose any of his talent or riding skills.
Stop being foolish.
Basso, Vino, Kaschekin and Valverde and those like's did all miss between 1-2 years racing. Vino did never became as good again in the mountains as before. Basso did become the very same basso who was riding for Fassa Bortolo. The Basso riding for CSC had actually develep an acceleration the last two years where he could follow armstrong.
Same goes for Kaschekin.
Valverde will be back at his normal level next year.
I really miss elegant powerfull real climbes like Contador, Mayo and Heras.
When they attack it is/was very beautifull and epic.
Does this remind you of anyone in this years tour? Although Bjarne Riis at least did some attacking in the mountains whereas Wiggins does nothing, I think Froome-Wiggins sort of compares to Ulrich-Riis.
Well i do know who it was because Jan Ullrich was my favourite rider of all time. In 1996 he litterally was leading across every damn mountain for Bjarne Riis, he was definately the absolute strongest rider that year and. And the 1997 he finally won after a fantastic race. The stage where he leads over a couple of mountains and then attacks virenque pantai riis etc on the last climb. Damn i miss him , he was maybe the biggest victim of Operation Puerto.
However it wasnt just his opponent who ruined his possible tour victoriess. It was his life style. Eating like a pig all year, always being overweight, not wanting to train, partying to much, taking coke/amphetamine etc.
Lance's transformation from sprinter to climber and tt monster after his disease is just undescribeable,
I did say that Froome might be able to hang on sometime on Contador and Schleck, but i really dont see him beat them at all. I dont see him driving from them, but ofc he is the most likely rider to be the third wheel when these to guys attack. Wiggins wont stand a chance, mark my words.
Froome will race this years vuelta and this will show some kind of strenght comparison and relationship.
Froome hasnt ride that much this year, neither last year, so if he is riding the vuelta and gets dropped i will not accept any "he is too tired" arguments.
And the guy who used the logic about Michael Rasmussen and Contador is just absolutely dumb.
Contador did ride first couple of months this year, and whole last year. He has only missed 5 months of racing. Michael Rasmussen did miss two whole year, and will never come back. He was blacklisted , nobody did dare to touch.
I can not see how Contador should loose any of his talent or riding skills.
Stop being foolish.
Basso, Vino, Kaschekin and Valverde and those like's did all miss between 1-2 years racing. Vino did never became as good again in the mountains as before. Basso did become the very same basso who was riding for Fassa Bortolo. The Basso riding for CSC had actually develep an acceleration the last two years where he could follow armstrong.
Same goes for Kaschekin.
Valverde will be back at his normal level next year.
I really miss elegant powerfull real climbes like Contador, Mayo and Heras.
When they attack it is/was very beautifull and epic.
Does this remind you of anyone in this years tour? Although Bjarne Riis at least did some attacking in the mountains whereas Wiggins does nothing, I think Froome-Wiggins sort of compares to Ulrich-Riis.[/quote]
Yeah it does remind me of Riis and Ullrich. But like you say Riis did attack. Ullrich was leading and working way more than Froome, he was an incredible mountain monster. And the biggest fact, in that era we had a lot of superstars and legendary riders.
In terms of legendariness, epicness, mythical value and x factor, froome and wiggins comparison will never be close to Riis-Ullrich.
But yes i agree with you that we have some similarities.
Edited by Ybodonk on 19-07-2012 09:48
In terms of legendariness, epicness, mythical value and x factor, froome and wiggins comparison will never be close to Riis-Ullrich.
But yes i agree with you that we have some similarities.
You can never rule that out, Froome from late 2011/2012 Tdf looks like future multiple GT winner to me, not concerning doping possibility. Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 19-07-2012 09:55
Aquarius wrote:
Yeah sure, that's why Sky are climbing faster this year than any favourite last year. Surely that'll make them spectators.
It's good to have such certainties. Well...
+1 just for Likkvi, please kill him someone.
Encouraging man-slaughter?
Not really appropriate for a cycling forum, is it?
Aquarius wrote:
Yeah sure, that's why Sky are climbing faster this year than any favourite last year. Surely that'll make them spectators.
It's good to have such certainties. Well...
+1 just for Likkvi, please kill him someone.
Encouraging man-slaughter?
Not really appropriate for a cycling forum, is it?
Aquarius wrote:
Yeah sure, that's why Sky are climbing faster this year than any favourite last year. Surely that'll make them spectators.
It's good to have such certainties. Well...
+1 just for Likkvi, please kill him someone.
Encouraging man-slaughter?
Not really appropriate for a cycling forum, is it?
). Well, it's 0.
