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2015 Giro d'Italia - Week Three (24th - 31st May)
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| Shonak |
Posted on 28-05-2015 11:18
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Tour de France Champion
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Jesus Christ.
Now putting aside the rulebook, which clearly states that technical assistance is not allowed and that Sicard got fined for the same thing at Tour l'Avenir (so it's not new) for an ever weirder rule application (Team France A/Team France B) and that Clarke and Porte broke an official rule and that their penalty is completely just and fair and the most normal thing in this situation, the thing between Contador/Anton/Nocentini and Porte/Clarke is not the same benefit at all.
Contador received no technical assistance. It was race assistance at best, from rider to another. Giving and receiving race assistance is completely fine. He received slipstream for a little portion of the climb. Giving and receiving slipstream is fundamental key to the art of racing on a professional level. Every breakaway is built on this very fact. Now you could say: But they all want to win. Well, maybe Anton knows that by helpign Contador a bit he may end up on the winner side of things.
If Contador had a puncture at Mortirolo and Anton gave him his wheel because Oleg Tinkov drove the team car into the bushes and all Tinkoff riders were still at the bottom of the climb: In that case, yes. Contador and Anton would have both been justly penalized.
But that was not the case.
Now, I think your problem with Anton is that apparently it's an act of helping a guy from another team and because of the Porte/Clarke issue all of those acts should be forbidden. But they arn't. Because there is no rule against it and everybody in the peloton does it now and then.
Porte & Clarke broke a clear rule of giving technical assistance. Is it for you because Porte/Clarke got penalized for friendship, Anton and Contador's friendship should be forbidden in the peloton? If that's the case, than I don't want to be involved in a sport that doesn't respect friendship and simple favors now and then. Giving and receiving bottles on a climb is just as beautiful in this sport as helping a friend in need. Just like everybody applauded the sportmanship of Clarke and Porte, but in their unfortunate case they broke a rule. In our case, pacing a little while for Contador when he put in an enormous effort prior.
In the peloton, guys help each other all the time. All the time! At the front of the race, in the back, in the grupetto. On the cobblestones, on the hills. After a crash. After a race. Before a race. You name it. You are just bringing this up because you're bitter about Porte. This would be a non-issue and it was a non-issue. Look at Tiralongo and Contador at Fuente De, which was by far more influential than Anton and Nocentini's help.
If there's one thing you can say about Contador: He never forgets a favor. Maybe he'll repay them by letting their break get away or he puts in a good word at Oleg Tinkov when the riders look for a new contract. Cycling is a game of alliances. Two teams which chase a breakaway form a temporary alliance and give each other slipstream. Anton put in some digs. Whatever the reason. You can't penalize him for that. He did it and he is completely allowed to do so. Maybe he felt for a second that he was the best climber in the world and wanted to drop Contador, Anton does mental things like that lol.
But he didn't do anything wrong. Maybe he did something wrong according to your moral compass that somewhat wants the friendship and massive assistance of Aussies to be cheered on but who doesn't want it when Spaniards do a little pull for one another. But, and I sound like a broken record, he did nothing wrong according to the rules. Just like you can't penalize Astana and Katusha for riding hard when Contador had a puncture. Or you can't penalize Froome for being a dick to Wiggins back in '12. Or Contador doing chaingate, or Cancellara previously forcing pace when Contador was held up by Fränkie Schleck's crash. Why. Because it's not an official rule.
What you can do, is get over the fact that Porte got penalized because let's be fair, it didn't matter in the end anyway.
Edited by Shonak on 28-05-2015 11:26
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Shonak |
Posted on 28-05-2015 11:25
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
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Riis123 wrote:
What can we expect of today climb? On paper it looks brutal and if Astana are up to it, they can split it all over again as it is as hard as Daone on the 15th stage, only a kilometre longer.
I say a break will succeed today tho, I would suspect they chill out a bit and waits for the two following days.
How's the descent? If the weather keeps being awful and it's tricky, that might be a good final. Hard to say how well recovered most riders are from Mortirolo stage but I wouldn't be surprised if 1-2 guys had problems from Top 10 (König maybe who had problems on Mortirolo).
Don't think Astana will force pace all that hard but they'll still try smthg. The way Aru looked on Tuesday, they'll be happy if he has one more day to recover and they wouldn't want to put him in danger just for nothing because don't think they are able to crack Contadaor on such a stage.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 12:01
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 28-05-2015 11:46
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Directeur Sportif
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If a small group of favourites come over the mountain I would go with Trofimov, he is a great decender and that could work out for him well.
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 28-05-2015 12:01
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Team Leader
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Ok, firstly I know the rules and I'm not disputing them, I'm just saying my opinion (which you can disagree with) on what they should be and the difference between the two.
First I just want to state it in black and white, the simplest possible. An Aussie from one team gives up his chances to help his teammate to win on the day to help his countryman from another team. and A Spaniard from one team gives up his chances to help a teammate or win on the day to help his countryman from another team.
Fundamentally they are the same, but I know they are different. I'm not saying the rules shouldn't be followed, but I'm saying that the things have the same benefit, (it was time for both of them, probably pretty similar amounts, maybe a little more for Porte but his actual teammates were almost back). I'm not saying the current decisions should be changed, look at the post in the spoiler or the last line of atlantius' first post last page for my opinion (or Pauls).
Spoiler MartijnVDD wrote:
About the Anton and Contador thingy. When you give someone your wheel, it's black, when you pace for someone, it's grey. The motive of the first case is clear, but that of the second case isn't, at least not always. Though it might be clear this time that Anton was pacing for Contador, there will be plenty of cases when it is not and there's a possibility that an innocent rider gets penalized. You should be able to stay consistent with your penalties, but if you give Contador a time penalty, he'll come up with plenty of examples where riders seemed to pace for other teams that weren't penalized.
Rules should avoid creating grey zones, that's why they had to draw a line between pacing and handing out wheels.
On my last post I very indirectly stated that I was happy to accept the current opinions and just agree to disagree, but now I feel like my opinions have been completely misinterpreted.
I love the friendship in the sport, but in comes to the point were it's toying with the race rules, in the break working together, in the sprinters chase for the break, in the grupetto working together. It's great, even at other times, when they are not working hard, it's arguably the best part of the sport, I had somebody offer me food in a race a couple weeks ago, we had just been dropped on a mountain and were working together to stay in the top ten, I really appreciated it. But in the end it is a sport, if you are fighting for 9th or 10th, or 150th or 151st, then be friends, but 1st and 2nd. That could have (very unlikely) been the decider for the Giro, what if Contador cracked? Landa might almost be in pink. What if Anton could have helped Amador? The friendships are arguably the best part of cycling, but having more friends doesn't give you an advantage, neither does being able to give back a favour.
This final paragraph makes no sense, in a cycling race, luck is a factor, there is a saying, 'you make your own luck'. You spend energy sitting at the front, but you are less likely to be affected by a crash, it's usually 70% your fault if your behind (and are you accusing me of just supporting Aussies there? If so you are doing the opposite.)
But you've completely misinterpreted my opinion, I'm saying that they should just rethink the rules.
Either way I'm willing to agree to disagree and just drop it, sorry I had to turn this into a big thing.
"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 28-05-2015 12:08
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Tour de France Champion
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This is why ever stage should be an Individual or Team Time Trial. That way no other teams can help a rider out, even if they wanted to. Every result would purely be about the riders ability, especially with the 5w/kg limit taking away serious doping impacts. It's really just a very simple solution.
You can have 200m time trials that sprinters can win. You could TT across the Arenburg for the classics specialists. Really there is no downside!
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 28-05-2015 12:18
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Tour de France Champion
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TheManxMissile wrote:
This is why ever stage should be an Individual or Team Time Trial. That way no other teams can help a rider out, even if they wanted to. Every result would purely be about the riders ability, especially with the 5w/kg limit taking away serious doping impacts. It's really just a very simple solution.
You can have 200m time trials that sprinters can win. You could TT across the Arenburg for the classics specialists. Really there is no downside!
Hey yeah! And there would be so many less crashes.
Brilliant thinking, you just changed the future of cycling for the best! 
Though the starting times should be 5 minutes instead of 1, because now sometimes a rider catches another one and they ride together for a bit, we can't have that! |
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 28-05-2015 12:19
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Team Leader
Posts: 7366
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TheManxMissile wrote:
This is why ever stage should be an Individual or Team Time Trial. That way no other teams can help a rider out, even if they wanted to. Every result would purely be about the riders ability, especially with the 5w/kg limit taking away serious doping impacts. It's really just a very simple solution.
You can have 200m time trials that sprinters can win. You could TT across the Arenburg for the classics specialists. Really there is no downside!
You really are serious about being put in charge of the UCI.
"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 28-05-2015 13:07
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
Joined: 07-08-2008
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Lets be honest, generally, we tend to think riding X rider off the peloton after a mechanical/crash is somewhat okay if we don't symphatize with the rider, and the other way around, which this discussion also clearly reveals. I still hold Belkin accountable for getting rid of Valverde, but had it been Mollema who was distanced, it had probably been completely fine with me since "they were already pulling at that moment" and all that jazz.
At least thats how I feel about it. I mean, if we dont root for anybody and sometimes against someone, what are we here for? Thats what got us into cycling in the first place and sometimes, especially concerning the time penalties (could also include the red flag last year on Stelvio), it gets extremely biased since we like some riders much more than others. |
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| Strydz |
Posted on 28-05-2015 13:46
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Bad luck for Cunego, got into the break then has a crash with Ferrai and is now out of the race
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
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| kubys |
Posted on 28-05-2015 13:57
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Domestique
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Hah, König offered 100k € to anyone who prove, that he was holding the team car too long in the Stage 16. Challenge accepted.  
Die hard fan of Tom Boonen and Quickstep since 2004.
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:02
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Team Leader
Posts: 7357
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Prince 
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| deek12345 |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:11
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Classics Specialist
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Ffs Eurosport showing tennis 
giro on ES2 now
Edited by deek12345 on 28-05-2015 14:21
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| DiCyc |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:34
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Sprinter
Posts: 1636
Joined: 09-03-2015
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What FDJ gonna do?  |
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:37
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Grand Tour Specialist
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DiCyc wrote:
What FDJ gonna do?
Probably want a top-10 for Geniez |
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| DiCyc |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:39
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Sprinter
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Crash - kiriyenka is down |
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| roturn |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:39
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Team Manager
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König as well I guess when all Sky riders wait.
Haven`t seen him though.
Edited by roturn on 28-05-2015 14:40
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| DiCyc |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:45
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Sprinter
Posts: 1636
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Landa is behind! |
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:46
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Classics Specialist
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Karma for Landa
But he is back I think |
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| DiCyc |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:47
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Sprinter
Posts: 1636
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And Lobato is down |
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 28-05-2015 14:48
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
Joined: 07-08-2008
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Hahaha I freakin love it |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
