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ICL20 - General | Scouting | Development
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| Shonak |
Posted on 06-12-2020 18:44
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Tour de France Champion
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Looks good!
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 21:54
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| Ripley |
Posted on 06-12-2020 18:57
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3341
Joined: 25-11-2014
PCM$: 300.00
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I wonder if it doesn't make riders around 74/75 too cheap. How about:
| AVG | Old | New | | | 70.0 | 100 | 100 | | | 70.5 | 100 | 100 | | | 71.0 | 100 | 100 | | | 71.5 | 100 | 100 | | | 72.0 | 110 | 100 | 110 | | 72.5 | 140 | 110 | 120 | | 73.0 | 160 | 120 | 140 | | 73.5 | 190 | 140 | 160 | | 74.0 | 220 | 160 | 190 | | 74.5 | 250 | 190 | 220 | | 75.0 | 280 | 220 | 250 | | 75.5 | 310 | 260 | 290 | | 76.0 | 350 | 300 | 320 |
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| OZrocker |
Posted on 07-12-2020 03:46
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Protected Rider
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I like it, definitely an improvement. As df_Trek said, it would be better for the increments to increase at each level, so ascending by 40, then 50, then 40 should be avoided if possible.
Ripley's idea is good too, but may result in teams needing an increased budget since there isn't as much money saved. IIRC there was a big difference in points scored from 74-75 AVG riders to those 76+, so I think Bikex's figures should be good to balance the wages a bit better.
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| Bikex |
Posted on 08-12-2020 20:19
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Team Leader
Posts: 7255
Joined: 25-08-2012
PCM$: 600.00
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Will look at the formula, but as said the increments are from rounding the values. If we look at the actual averages which have increments of ,1 the increasement will look more natural.
Anyways I kind of forgot what still needs to be done until we can start with renewals, so it probably won't be before this weekend, as the budget has to be calculated.
One part of the budget depends on the division a team is in and as we have lots of disbandments this season I'm not sure which teams should be part of WT.
Looking at last years ranking we have already 14 teams fix for WT and are looking for 4 more:
| 1 | 1 |  Grupo Argos - Quala | WT | 11034 | | 3 | 2 |  Italo | WT | 8297 | | 4 | 3 |  Allianz - BMW Cycling Team | WT | 8216 | | 5 | 5 |  Team Alitalia | WT | 6945 | | 6 | 6 |  Liberty Seguros | WT | 6761 | | 7 | 7 |  Aviva Cycling Team | WT | 6483 | | 9 | 8 |  Suntory Lucozade Sport | WT | 6192 | | 10 | 11 |  Équipe Cycliste Peugeot | WT | 5627 | | 11 | 10 |  Sevilla Cycling Team | WT | 5612 | | 12 | 12 |  Filliers - Mora Pro Cycling Team | WT | 4937 | | 13 | 13 |  TVM Cycling Team | WT | 4895 | | 14 | 14 |  Lufthansa | WT | 4835 | | - | | 14 | 17 |  Ceramica Panaria - Autogrill - Cipollini | CT | 5784 | | 16 | 16 |  Santos - Euskadi | CT | 5326 |
For the remaining 4 teams we can look at the relegating teams and the next positions of the CT teams in the PR rankings:
| 16 | 16 |  Credit Suisse | WT | 3577 | | 17 | 17 |  CCC Sprandi Polkowice | WT | 3545 | | 18 | 18 |  VisitUkraine p/b Nemiroff | WT | 2849 | | - | | 20 | 19 |  KBC Godiva | CT | 4818 | | 23 | 23 |  Vegeta Cycling Team | CT | 4068 | | 24 | 24 |  Pedal Africa for Qhubeka | CT | 4025 | | 26 | 26 |  Bosch Cycling Team | CT | 3952 | | 27 | 27 |  Equinor Pro Cycling | CT | 3526 | | 30 | 28 |  Team Cymru Wales | CT | 3369 | | 31 | 29 |  Brugse Zot - Trek | CT | 3352 | | 32 | 33 |  Shell Pro Cycling | CT | 3335 |
Also other factors like activity could be taken into account.
What do you think who should get the remaining 4 WT spots? |
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| Shonak |
Posted on 08-12-2020 20:36
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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Acitivity-wise and w/ the ranking in mind, imho Credit Suisse, CCC, KBC and Vegeta. Brugse too far down unfortunately, all others not active enough imho.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 08-12-2020 22:47
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2324
Joined: 07-07-2016
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best 4 teams in prestige ranking between relegated and CT teams can be a good method imo if you look just at meritocracy by results (same way PCM works in careers for PCT and CT promoting system).
anyway activity should play a relevant role imo, but not to extreme like promoting middle ranking teams...
By the way, Brugse Zot managers, seeing their name somehow linked to this talks, want to clarify that there won't be accepted any WT license from disbanding teams, partnerships aren't ready for a step so big, and needs more sponsors research that are not possible in such short time, the team needs to improve on roads to claim better exposure.
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| Vali |
Posted on 08-12-2020 23:00
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Domestique
Posts: 735
Joined: 05-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Seems like a good time to show some activity 
It's difficult for me to say who should be in WT as I'm obviously biased. In a way it would be strange not to relegate as the rules were made clear beforehand (well not clear enough for me but you get the point ). So having basically no teams relegate would be strange because it wouldn't be consistent with the league system that we have, in which the teams that didn't do a good enough job get some sort of "punishment" and have to try to bounce back next year.
On the other hand there are obviously 4 more teams missing and they have to be filled up somehow. You could maybe also argue that the teams in CT that didn't manage to promote directly also didn't do a 'good enough job' so yeah it's a difficult one. Maybe it's also a matter of keeping things dynamic and so allowing more teams from CT some time in WT. So yeah I don't know.
About the wages:
I know it would probably be a lot of work, but a differentiation between rider types might be a good idea, especially TTists. For example Dillier on my team has a pretty high average and so is well above minimum wage. But with 76-77 TT there really is not a lot of scoring potential for him (especially in WT, I think he didn't even score 50 points) so maybe that could be looked into? Maybe I also used him in a completely wrong way.
Credits to the_hoyle for my avatar. |
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| OZrocker |
Posted on 09-12-2020 04:14
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Protected Rider
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Without looking into it too deeply, I would say 2 WT & 2 CT. Credit Suisse definitely deserve to stay and I think CCC have done enough also. KBC are well ahead of all the others, so I would have no issues with them being promoted.
IMO, we should see at least one team relegated, which means that VisitUkraine miss out and Vegeta take the last spot (unless there's a higher ranked team signing up in the next 24 hours).
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| Ripley |
Posted on 09-12-2020 07:48
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3341
Joined: 25-11-2014
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Vali's series of unfortunate misunderstandings should end in relegation because it's fitting and funny.  Nonetheless, I agree with the others, in this situation I think the best option is to let Credit Suisse and CCC stay while KBC and Vegeta promote.
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 09-12-2020 11:45
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Directeur Sportif
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Shonak wrote:
Acitivity-wise and w/ the ranking in mind, imho Credit Suisse, CCC, KBC and Vegeta. Brugse too far down unfortunately, all others not active enough imho.
This. Or possibly even narrowing down PT by 2 teams with fewer teams overall next season.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 09-12-2020 12:00
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World Champion
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I'm not a big fan of pushing the more liked teams up, I'd just offer it to the top CT teams if they accept.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 09-12-2020 12:30
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2324
Joined: 07-07-2016
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looked at the prestige ranking, and figured out that best solution imo is the one already frequently proposed.
Credit Swisse, KBC, CCC and Vegeta, promoted with this order of priority.
reducing WT teams isn't a bad idea too...with 30 team a 16/14 ratio looks better than 18/12, but I don't want to see GT with less than 22 teams....
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 09-12-2020 13:32
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World Champion
Posts: 11971
Joined: 21-07-2012
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I don't see Vegeta having a competitive WT team at all
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| Shonak |
Posted on 09-12-2020 17:35
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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I think only promoting 2 or 3 teams would also be fair given the smaller CT pool as trek and croatia mentioned.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| dominox |
Posted on 10-12-2020 18:31
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1452
Joined: 23-07-2014
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With my team I'll agree on any outcome. I just like ICL, so I want to still be part of it. It sure would be fine to stay in WT, but it isn't really my decision if that will happen or not. |
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| Vali |
Posted on 10-12-2020 19:37
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Domestique
Posts: 735
Joined: 05-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Yeah I basically feel the same way as dominox, I'll happily continue either way. I actually thought it was already guaranteed that we would go down so I was already focusing on CT. So there definitely won't be any complaints or something like from my side regardless of where we'll be (but don't let that influence your decision ).
Credits to the_hoyle for my avatar. |
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| Shonak |
Posted on 10-12-2020 20:42
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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Quite a few old names reappear, great to see. Surprised that Vittel has not signed up, and also whitejersey and aquarius are active users with a prior team. Too bad
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Scatmaster111 |
Posted on 10-12-2020 21:00
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Domestique
Posts: 409
Joined: 07-11-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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I'm glad to be back and to see everyone again, and I'm gonna try to make more of an effort to be active and engaged
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| OZrocker |
Posted on 11-12-2020 04:46
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1280
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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Glad to have you back!
I agree with Ollfardh, while having active managers is nice it shouldn't decide who gets promoted/relegated. If Vegeta want to stay CT I think that is fair too, they shouldn't be made to compete in the WT if they don't want to.
If the only reason for needing the WT to have 18 teams is to ensure that we get full squads for Grand Tours, I'd say that isn't a good enough reason to keep it that way. We can enter some non-managed teams (such as ICBC) or national squads to complete the 22 if not enough CT teams sign up. I think we will need to have some non-managed teams to fill up the lower CT races anyway, and that has worked well in the past.
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| Scatmaster111 |
Posted on 11-12-2020 07:48
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Domestique
Posts: 409
Joined: 07-11-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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If the only reason for needing the WT to have 18 teams is to ensure that we get full squads for Grand Tours, I'd say that isn't a good enough reason to keep it that way. We can enter some non-managed teams (such as ICBC) or national squads to complete the 22 if not enough CT teams sign up. I think we will need to have some non-managed teams to fill up the lower CT races anyway, and that has worked well in the past.
Yeah, I agree with that, depending on the amount of sign-ups having 18 WT teams shouldn't be totally necessary. I think that national teams would be the most interesting way to fill those spaces, with riders from teams that aren't entered
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