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The 2013 season in retrospective. Your thoughts and comments.
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 24-10-2013 11:53
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My main point was that it's hard for me to compare Sagan's results to Riccós in the junior years - mainly because I can't find a place with a good overview so I can't say how Riccó did in comparable races 
I have no idea who Sagan was up against in his junior MTB-races, but I doubt the competition in the MTB-ranks is really that tough when a talent like Sagan comes around. And to be completely honest finishing 2nd in Jr Paris - Roubaix is not a guarentee of futures big success if you look at the Podiums since the first edition in 2003.
In my book it's at least as big a result beating pro riders as the pre-2009 Sagan results. He showed talent but he did nothing in 2009 to suggest he could make that kind of results in 2010.
or you see similar riders to compare with Sagan?
Hushovd in his prime, Boasson Hagen when he's allowed, Geraint Thomas just to name three riders who enjoy the same kind of races as Sagan, but just doesn't ride them on the same level.
When he made the statement he had no results justifying him to claim his own category. Had he been humble he would have just said something like "There is only on Eddy Merckx and it's not me". Not suggesting that he will need a separate category next to the cannibal even before having won anything major.
I will grant you (and him) though that he has become much more modest/realistic the last half year or so.
Fact is,that all the dominators across the whole sporting world are hated to some point, i know that because i have also those tendencies. 
I know, just wanted to demonstrate that at least my disliking Sagan is not blindly disliking the champion, but due to a number of other things that give me a unsettling feeling in my stomach
The kind of cynisism/pessimism that comes from many years as a cycling fan...
Anyway I think we should close it here as we went quite a bit off topic. Thanks for a civilized discussion at least - this kind of things can be rare on the internet...
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 24-10-2013 12:50
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Atlantius wrote:
Thanks for a civilized discussion at least - this kind of things can be rare on the internet...
Well said. I have to say, i pretty enjoyed your discussion, guys so thanks for that.
You both had your points, btw. I'm kinda with Atlantius, tbh, but as Avin has all of my respect, i totally understand his point of view So in short: thanks for giving me something to read today!
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| Niliak |
Posted on 24-10-2013 13:36
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I am intrigued, why do so many people seem to be anti Froome? |
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| Selwink |
Posted on 24-10-2013 13:38
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Because of his ugly style of riding, because of ruining a big part of the spectacle of mountaineous races and because he is an obvious doper.
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| 9-Ball |
Posted on 24-10-2013 14:27
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Selwink wrote:
.... because he is an obvious doper.
That would be the main reason. The rest wouldn't be a concern if this wasn't the central ... 'concern'.
It was eleven more than necessary.
Jacques Anquetil
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| vismitananda |
Posted on 24-11-2013 00:25
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Froomey joined the party and everyone was blown away. I really won't forget the stage in TDF where Team Movistar failed at dropping this doper.
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 24-11-2013 00:58
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I liked the Tour when Contador beat Andy when Amdy had a mechanical issue. Those tours when you have an even 1v1 or more are far more exciting than tours where you have 1 who dominates and the second place is far ahead of a batte for 3rd. I also liked the Evans Tour.
I prefer it when someone dominates a Tour because of their attacking ability and not their complete time trial domination (Wiggins and Froome).
Im hoping next years Tour will be between Movistar, Belkin and the other big teams, excluding Sky.
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| atlanta |
Posted on 24-11-2013 01:10
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Ha ha were you even watching the TDF, Froome attacked plenty and finished it off everyone else attacked when they had two AC was a joke in this Tour(all season in fact), it was obvious on AX-3 RK was their man to get a podium spot. Froome attacked in every race he been too, Romandie MTF, Prato Di Tivo, Oman. He even put in a little dig on 1 of the hilly stages stage 2 or 3 of the TDF. Froome won the race in the mountains aswell as the ITT. |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 24-11-2013 01:12
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vismitananda wrote:
Froomey joined the party and everyone was blown away. I really won't forget the stage in TDF where Team Movistar failed at dropping this doper.
Ha ha yes your probably calling him a doper yet are a fan of 1. The irony is amazing on forums we hate Sky they dope, then its come on Contador save us from the borgs? Yet who is the convicted doper? |
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Posted on 25-11-2024 07:48
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| atlanta |
Posted on 24-11-2013 01:23
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I dont think Froome dopes, it's just my opinion. One thing annoys me is he was a bad cyclist, eh Cyclists dont peak the same, AC is in what should be his prime but he looks on the wane. Why cant someone be a bad Junior and be a great pro, why? You cant say every cyclist has to show something early guys, people devolpe at dif stage's, and do you honestly think his condition did not affect him? I admit its a big rise but i believe and noone will change my mind. He never backs off trying to win the stage he gets tested so many times? I think we all agree its harder now than ever to dope? I mean Sky would have so much to lose, also why has'nt anyone dobbed them in surely now some expro for E.G M.Barry has nothing to lose and say yes they doped. I just dont believe they are.
I loved watching all the mjor stage races, and you guys are going to have to start getting used to it by the looks of it, Quintana v Froome for next 5 years imo. Dont think Nibali is as good to beat him,Quintana had better recovery than Froome and also was either as good or a little beow uphill. He just needs to work on his ITT. |
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 24-11-2013 01:48
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9-Ball wrote:
Selwink wrote:
.... because he is an obvious doper.
That would be the main reason. The rest wouldn't be a concern if this wasn't the central ... 'concern'.
Nah, I would say this is the smaller of the reasons Selwink wrote. After all, most people cheered to Contador, Nibali, etc to beat Froome
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
a) Sagan does not have a big EGO, even more, he is a very humble person, who also every time give much credit to others around him.
To pull an isso (quoting not with the exact words but with the same meaning):
"Maybe when I get tired of winning classics I can lose some weight and win grand tours" - Peter Sagan 2012 (before he had actually won any classic) 
(I realize these two posts are from a month ago, but the topic has been brought back so why not answer )
atlanta wrote:
I dont think Froome dopes, it's just my opinion. One thing annoys me is he was a bad cyclist, eh Cyclists dont peak the same, AC is in what should be his prime but he looks on the wane. Why cant someone be a bad Junior and be a great pro, why? You cant say every cyclist has to show something early guys, people devolpe at dif stage's, and do you honestly think his condition did not affect him?
Indeed cyclists do not have to be the same. But nearly all big talents have shown that from early age, which Froome hasn't done, while the majority of the small percentage that just 'surged out of nowhere' were later proven to be doping.
atlanta wrote:
I admit its a big rise but i believe and noone will change my mind.
Not really open-minded there. What's the point of discussing then? Besides, on the rest of your post, you're just pulling out Armstrong-like excuses ( "he gets tested so often, but he has never tested positive!", "they have so much to lose" and etc). There's 135 pages about that in this forum and if you just are willing to give up blind beliefs and try to learn more about the facts by reading some pages, you'll understand why people believe Froome dopes.
One of the facts, for example, is Froome's watts. He's not only beating the rest of the field: he's putting out numbers that are quite above the maximum numbers believed that a clean human (and the ultimate human, the most fantastic athlete the earth would have seen) can achieve. In Mont Ventoux, for example, Froome averaged 409 W; the 'threshold' of credibility for such an effort (around 60 minutes) would be around 390 W.
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| atlanta |
Posted on 24-11-2013 02:40
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Wow for saying i believe and no one will change my mind? What the hell is wrong with that, they just hate it because their fav rider gets beat, Cycling news is the best look at the AC thread(he is a drug cheat)its a massive loveing. Time will tell Illuuiggi, i have give him the benefit of the doubt and man this is nothing like Armstrong, wise up man. This is 2013 not late 90's mid 2000's. Dont you agree its alot harder to get way with it now, Armstrong never filed a test you cant pull that 1, Armstrong did fail a test but they could only prove it now as it was not upto scratch back then.
I believe as time moves on it becomes harder and harder, and if cycling can get Contador why would they not get Froome, so it just shows no matter how big you are then you will be caught. Bye the way i take your well though opinions well, i just believe him and Sky, is that wrong? |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 24-11-2013 02:43
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Maybe im dumb your wise time will tell but i believe him and im a fan just like im a an of any attavking rider, which is main reason i posted bye the way when LLS said Froome wins cuz of ITT. Then i look up and its meant to be a FACT that Sky are doping, surely that is worst people saying that than me saying i give him the benefit of the doubt. |
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 24-11-2013 03:41
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atlanta wrote:
they just hate it because their fav rider gets beat, Cycling news is the best look at the AC thread(he is a drug cheat)its a massive loveing.
AC is far from my favorite rider. My dislike from Froome comes from the fact that he makes races boring because he's a level above of everyone else and takes all suspense away from the race. But again, it's because I dislike him that I believe he dopes; there are lots of facts and indirect evidence that lead to that.
atlanta wrote:
and man this is nothing like Armstrong, wise up man. This is 2013 not late 90's mid 2000's.
Uhh, it's a lot like Armstrong. In terms of climbing times / watts, Froome is generally a little bit behind Armstrong (but still better than several other heavy dopers), and has beat Armstrong a couple of times iirc. Besides, both of them have some sort of 'magical disease' and 'miracle transformation', plus the fact that their defenders use nearly the same excuses on the forums around!
atlanta wrote:
Dont you agree its alot harder to get way with it now,
It definitely is a lot harder, and that's mainly the reason why Froome does not beat all Armstrong & co times. But being harder does not mean impossible; in fact, it's quite easy, if you have the correct people handling a good program. To quote Aquarius:
edit : I forgot to add that their medical staff is top quality, no matter how you look at it. From the doping viewpoint, they probably master the pharmacokinetics of every PED they use, so they know how much, at what time of the day and how often they can take what, without any fear of a positive test.
I also believe that some doctor or ex-doper said a similar thing, but off the top of my head I can't believe who; would be grateful if someone could point out the quote.
atlanta wrote:
Armstrong never filed a test you cant pull that 1, Armstrong did fail a test but they could only prove it now as it was not upto scratch back then .
The point stands. Armstrong was tested at least 150, 200 times and failed 1. Nowadays, there are still several well known dopers who pass test by test. Or, to put it as Bernhard Kohl said: "I was tested 200 times during my career, and 100 times I had drugs in my body. I was caught, but 99 other times, I wasn’t."
atlanta wrote:
I believe as time moves on it becomes harder and harder, and if cycling can get Contador why would they not get Froome, so it just shows no matter how big you are then you will be caught.
You could stay hours bringing up doped riders who never tested positive. Contador and Armstrong are closer to being exceptions than the rule.
atlanta wrote:
i just believe him and Sky, is that wrong?
No, it isn't (never said it is), but judging on the amount of fact that indicates otherwise, I can't help but think it's a bit naive to believe Froome and Sky (and btw - I don't think you're dumb because of that).
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 24-11-2013 03:54
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Atlanta. I dont only dislike Froome because I believe he wins because of the Time Trials. I also believe what I think someone said about the last Tour being kinda boring cause Froome won quite easily. I dont necessarily think he dopes but he is one of the more suspicious riders, excluding Horner (questionable).
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| atlanta |
Posted on 24-11-2013 03:54
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Some excellent comments lluuiiggii maybe im just naive i just want to believe him i dont know, ive not denyed its a big transorfation to anyonei just dot no why i believe him. I actually like watching him i know yes he is better thn most but he still is nothing like Wiggins that diva sends me to sleep. |
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 24-11-2013 03:59
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Theres a reason no Brit had won for ages
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| atlanta |
Posted on 24-11-2013 09:53
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@LLS what do you mean mate?. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 25-11-2013 06:34
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lluuiiggii wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
a) Sagan does not have a big EGO, even more, he is a very humble person, who also every time give much credit to others around him.
To pull an isso (quoting not with the exact words but with the same meaning):
"Maybe when I get tired of winning classics I can lose some weight and win grand tours" - Peter Sagan 2012 (before he had actually won any classic)
(I realize these two posts are from a month ago, but the topic has been brought back so why not answer )
Yes,this sounds extremely cocky, but i have my doubts it was said in serious manner. As we all know Sagan,he tries to make jokes everywhere, even when it is not appropriate and even when he is not very good at it. So i think this was meant as the joke to counter the stupid journalist questions, but who knows?
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 25-11-2013 06:46
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
lluuiiggii wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
a) Sagan does not have a big EGO, even more, he is a very humble person, who also every time give much credit to others around him.
To pull an isso (quoting not with the exact words but with the same meaning):
"Maybe when I get tired of winning classics I can lose some weight and win grand tours" - Peter Sagan 2012 (before he had actually won any classic)
(I realize these two posts are from a month ago, but the topic has been brought back so why not answer )
Yes,this sounds extremely cocky, but i have my doubts it was said in serious manner. As we all know Sagan,he tries to make jokes everywhere, even when it is not appropriate and even when he is not very good at it. So i think this was meant as the joke to counter the stupid journalist questions, but who knows?
I believe it was said because the journalists were pushing him into saying he could win the Tour (Bernard Hinault said that he could do it). Sagan wants to race classics, and win classics. So that's probably why he said it. Probably heard that very question 100 times already that week |
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