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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 12:33
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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PCM$: 200.00
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Silvio Herklotz wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Mountain:
83: Contador, Froome
82: Nibali, Quintana
80: Valverde, RodrÃguez, Aru, Pinot, Peraud
79: Urán, Rolland, Majka, TVG, Bardet
Sprint:
83: Kittel
82: Cavendish
81: Kristoff, Greipel
80: Degenkolb, Bouhanni
Hills:
83: Valverde, D.Martin
82: Gerrans, Gilbert, RodrÃguez
81: Moreno, Kwiatkowski
Cobbles:
83: Cancellara, Vanmarcke
81: Terpstra, Avermaet
80: Boonen, Vandenbergh, Stybar
79: Degenkolb, Kristoff, Sagan
Time Trial:
83: Wiggins, T.Martin
81: Dumouli
80: Dennis, Malori, Froome, Cancellara
79: Kiryienka, Barta, Phinney, Uran
For now, no way Wiggo can stay on the same level as Martin, 1 point less could be justified.
Rest is close to quite fine.
Are you really sure? I know Greipel isn't getting better, but in a pure sprint and also on a little hilly route he would easily beat Kristoff. He's more a classics one. Am I the only one who would set Kristoff at 79 only?
Rest is close to quite fine means that it isn't perfect. And nor fine. And nor quite fine.
Anyway 79 is way too low... You have a point but Kristoff is already 81 in the db, so that isn't the most wrong thing. Kristoff is 80.5. We'll see.
@kyle Aru 81 is too high if you mean mountains, it'll be higher than Valverde and purito, only a point lower than Nibali and Quintana. Aru should stay on 79.
Edited by matt17br on 25-09-2014 12:37
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 25-09-2014 12:43
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
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PCM$: 400.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
You do not see bike race ?
Kristoff was much better than Greipel, Degenkolb, Bouhanni in all races and almost as good as Kittel in TDF/Champs-Élysées.
Aru are not better than Valverde/RodrÃguez og he is not 2 point better than Uran.
You don't see the races, i think.
I think:
Kittel 83
Cav 82(but better hill stat then Kittel)
Greipel 81
Kristoff 80-81
Degenkolb 80
Bouhanni 79-80
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 12:50
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Paul23 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
You do not see bike race ?
Kristoff was much better than Greipel, Degenkolb, Bouhanni in all races and almost as good as Kittel in TDF/Champs-Élysées.
Aru are not better than Valverde/RodrÃguez og he is not 2 point better than Uran.
You don't see the races, i think.
I think:
Kittel 83
Cav 82(but better hill stat then Kittel)
Greipel 81
Kristoff 80-81
Degenkolb 80
Bouhanni 79-80
The only thing to discuss is the Kristoff's 81 i think.
Vote by show of hands, guys 
For me 81.
Edited by matt17br on 25-09-2014 13:33
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| bob7 |
Posted on 25-09-2014 13:26
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Kristoff had a great season, he deserve 81 SP.
Edited by bob7 on 25-09-2014 13:57
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:01
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Posts: 1190
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Me too, Kristoff 81 |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:14
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
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I think you need to delve deeper into Kristoff's results. Let's take it race by race: Qatar fairly poor for a sprinter. Oman had 1 good stage, otherwise beaten by many other sprinters. Paris-Nice was always beaten by lower rated riders. Did win MSR, but look at the Top10 and it certainly wasn't a "sprinters" race. Great run of classiscs, but that's more about cobbles for PCM than SP. Great results in Norway races, but they were hardly against great opposition (Ciolek in Uno-X, no-one in Fjords). Behind Sagan and Cavendish and Modolo in Suisse both times. Good in Arctic Race, but i wouldn't say special as Hushovd was his toughest opponent in terms of form and results. Good at Vattenfal, but Gerrans 3rd tells you a lot. And of course he was strong in the Tour, but no more strong than Greipel or Kittel.
Overall it's a decent season, but nothing outstanding outside Le Tour. It's equivalent to Demare and Bouhanni. Even Viviani has enough similar level results. Matthews has out race him as many times this season as Kristoff has to Matthews. 81SP is massivley overstating his season results, even 79 i'd say is going too far.
Give him a strong HL, strong CB, strong support stats but drop his SP down to 78
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:19
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World Champion
Posts: 14501
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80 SP for Kristoff, but with a FL, hill, res, sta stats superior to all sprinters (except Degenkolb, who should be similar).
And maybe wait for the Worlds as well, I'm still thinking it'll be a sprint with a reduced peloton.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:28
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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TheManxMissile wrote:
I think you need to delve deeper into Kristoff's results. Let's take it race by race: Qatar fairly poor for a sprinter. Oman had 1 good stage, otherwise beaten by many other sprinters. Paris-Nice was always beaten by lower rated riders. Did win MSR, but look at the Top10 and it certainly wasn't a "sprinters" race. Great run of classiscs, but that's more about cobbles for PCM than SP. Great results in Norway races, but they were hardly against great opposition (Ciolek in Uno-X, no-one in Fjords). Behind Sagan and Cavendish and Modolo in Suisse both times. Good in Arctic Race, but i wouldn't say special as Hushovd was his toughest opponent in terms of form and results. Good at Vattenfal, but Gerrans 3rd tells you a lot. And of course he was strong in the Tour, but no more strong than Greipel or Kittel.
Overall it's a decent season, but nothing outstanding outside Le Tour. It's equivalent to Demare and Bouhanni. Even Viviani has enough similar level results. Matthews has out race him as many times this season as Kristoff has to Matthews. 81SP is massivley overstating his season results, even 79 i'd say is going too far.
Give him a strong HL, strong CB, strong support stats but drop his SP down to 78
You certainly have a good point, but not enough good to down him to 78...
79 neither, primarily because he defeated mostly every sprinter on 79.
And I don't see how Greipel was better than him in Le Tour, and he demonstrated that he can compete even with Kittel in a pure sprint (even if only in the 3rd week, see Champs Elysees)
As for the other results, well, you can't be in shape all the season. He had his peaks in the Tour and after that. MSR isn't the reason he is on 81, he has an excellent stamina and hill resistance so it was fairly easy to win the sprint.
I won't have problems putting him on 80, though.
@Ollfardh, yeah, that will be a good compromise, I'd up his acc, too, if we down his sp. Though, yeah, I'd wait for the WC, when we will see if he's a better sprinter than Degenkolb and Bouhanni.
Edited by matt17br on 25-09-2014 14:34
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:40
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
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matt17br wrote:
You certainly have a good point, but not enough good to down him to 78...
79 neither, primarily because he defeated mostly every sprinter on 79.
And I don't see how Greipel was better than him in Le Tour, and he demonstrated that he can compete even with Kittel in a pure sprint (even if only in the 3rd week, see Champs Elysees)
I won't have problems putting him on 80, though.
Kristoff (81SP) vs Bennett (77SP?) 2014: 4-3 to Kristoff.... however! One of those was Gent-Wevelgem, a race in PCM pretty much solely reliant on CB for stat making, and two of those were Arctic Race of Norway of which in one Bennett finished 5th last after a crash(?)
Just sayin...
Kristoff (81SP) vs Modolo (78SP?) 2014: 2-4 to Modolo... One of Kristoffs was GW, so again it's CB over SP in PCM. The other was MSR which is also not a great representation of SP ability.
Modolo's wins came in Suisse twice, both riders in good form. The other two came in Driedaagse De Panne, right when Kristoff was in top classics form...
Just sayin...
Edited by TheManxMissile on 25-09-2014 14:41
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:48
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Posts: 10525
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TheManxMissile wrote:
matt17br wrote:
You certainly have a good point, but not enough good to down him to 78...
79 neither, primarily because he defeated mostly every sprinter on 79.
And I don't see how Greipel was better than him in Le Tour, and he demonstrated that he can compete even with Kittel in a pure sprint (even if only in the 3rd week, see Champs Elysees)
I won't have problems putting him on 80, though.
Kristoff (81SP) vs Bennett (77SP?) 2014: 4-3 to Kristoff.... however! One of those was Gent-Wevelgem, a race in PCM pretty much solely reliant on CB for stat making, and two of those were Arctic Race of Norway of which in one Bennett finished 5th last after a crash(?)
Just sayin...
Kristoff (81SP) vs Modolo (78SP?) 2014: 2-4 to Modolo... One of Kristoffs was GW, so again it's CB over SP in PCM. The other was MSR which is also not a great representation of SP ability.
Modolo's wins came in Suisse twice, both riders in good form. The other two came in Driedaagse De Panne, right when Kristoff was in top classics form...
Just sayin...
There are several factors that affect the performance of a sprinter.
Anyway, I am not going to continue too long to defend Kristoff since there isn't a main reason
Anyway 80 will be more than fair. Nizzolo couldn't ever beat Kittel-Greipel-Demare 2 times in the same race.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:50
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16362
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10038.70
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I would say 7 with good resistance and hills.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:51
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
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matt17br wrote:
Anyway 80 will be more than fair. Nizzolo couldn't ever beat Kittel-Greipel-Demare 2 times in the same race.
Nizzolo vs Demare:
Beat him twice in Giro 2012, twice Eneco 2012, three times Eneco 2013 and has beaten him twice in 2014 (2-1 Nizzolo in 2014 races)
*tollolololol*
Nizzolo vs Kittel:
Beat him twice in Eneco 2013 and Vattenfalls 2012 and 2014 interestingly
Nizzolo vs Greipel:
Beat him twice in ZLM 2012 and twice Metropole 2012
Edited by TheManxMissile on 25-09-2014 14:55
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:53
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
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TheManxMissile wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Anyway 80 will be more than fair. Nizzolo couldn't ever beat Kittel-Greipel-Demare 2 times in the same race.
Nizzolo vs Demare:
Beat him twice in Giro 2012, twice Eneco 2012, three times Eneco 2013 and has beaten him twice in 2014 (2-1 Nizzolo in 2014 races)
*tollolololol*
Ok. Ok. Ok. Fuck you procyclingstats 
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:56
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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matt17br wrote:
Ok. Ok. Ok. Fuck you procyclingstats
But at least i'm trolling correctly with a clear and supported purpose. Also if you're making stats and not using PCS as one of your primary sources then i'm very concerned
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:58
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Ok. Ok. Ok. Fuck you procyclingstats
But at least i'm trolling correctly with a clear and supported purpose. Also if you're making stats and not using PCS as one of your primary sources then i'm very concerned
I primarily use pcs to confirm what I'm not sure of. Though I should use it a bit more
Edited by matt17br on 25-09-2014 14:59
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-09-2014 14:59
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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matt17br wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Ok. Ok. Ok. Fuck you procyclingstats
But at least i'm trolling correctly with a clear and supported purpose. Also if you're making stats and not using PCS as one of your primary sources then i'm very concerned
I primarily use pcs to confirm what I'm not sure. Though I should use it a bit more
Apparently you're not sure of some fairly major things, but now you know 
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 15:04
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
matt17br wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Ok. Ok. Ok. Fuck you procyclingstats
But at least i'm trolling correctly with a clear and supported purpose. Also if you're making stats and not using PCS as one of your primary sources then i'm very concerned
I primarily use pcs to confirm what I'm not sure. Though I should use it a bit more
Apparently you're not sure of some fairly major things, but now you know
I couldn't be sure without the help of a site that Nizzolo finished above Demare 2 times in the same stage race
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-09-2014 15:19
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
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But you do see my point about Kristoff now. He's very strong, and that is represented in other stats.
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-09-2014 15:23
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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TheManxMissile wrote:
But you do see my point about Kristoff now. He's very strong, and that is represented in other stats.
Ofc, Kristoff is one of the most complete classics's rider along with Degenkolb. But only because he is good in other stats you shouldn't underrate him in the flat sprint ability 
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 25-09-2014 15:28
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
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matt17br wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
But you do see my point about Kristoff now. He's very strong, and that is represented in other stats.
Ofc, Kristoff is one of the most complete classics's rider along with Degenkolb. But only because he is good in other stats you shouldn't underrate him in the flat sprint ability
I don't, his TDF was great. However as i just proved that race was not representitive of his season, and that realistically he is a 78-79SP for 80% of the season.
Or you need to up Modolo to 80SP because he hasn't lost an in-form sprint to Kristoff all season
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
