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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| matt17br |
Posted on 21-09-2014 12:46
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Directeur Sportif
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Nibali's not overrated at all and a perfect 82. He won the Tour by 7 and a half minutes and 9 and a half minutes over Valverde.
If Froome and Contador are 83 then he's definitely 82, needs to be at least 2 points over Valverde. The only big issue I see amongst the really big riders is Quintana to whether he should be 83 or 82.
Quintana will stay on 82 mainly because he never fought Froome or Contador in a GT as a leader.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 21-09-2014 13:00
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
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matt17br wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Nibali's not overrated at all and a perfect 82. He won the Tour by 7 and a half minutes and 9 and a half minutes over Valverde.
If Froome and Contador are 83 then he's definitely 82, needs to be at least 2 points over Valverde. The only big issue I see amongst the really big riders is Quintana to whether he should be 83 or 82.
Quintana will stay on 82 mainly because he never fought Froome or Contador in a GT as a leader.
Fair enough, the other issue to really take into consideration are the TT stats. You've probably got Froome on about 80 which makes him far superior to Quintana in TT, even Nibali and Contador who normally have a TT of 76 suffer against Froome but can limit their losses. For this reason I feel that Quintana should be worth 83 to give him a slight advantage. I also think he's at least 2 points better than Valverde. Not sure what you have Valverde on but I'm guessing 80 or 81.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 21-09-2014 13:01
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| matt17br |
Posted on 21-09-2014 13:07
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Nibali's not overrated at all and a perfect 82. He won the Tour by 7 and a half minutes and 9 and a half minutes over Valverde.
If Froome and Contador are 83 then he's definitely 82, needs to be at least 2 points over Valverde. The only big issue I see amongst the really big riders is Quintana to whether he should be 83 or 82.
Quintana will stay on 82 mainly because he never fought Froome or Contador in a GT as a leader.
Fair enough, the other issue to really take into consideration are the TT stats. You've probably got Froome on about 80 which makes him far superior to Quintana in TT, even Nibali and Contador6 who normally have a TT of 76 suffer against Froome but can limit their losses. For this reason I feel that Quintana should be worth 83 to give him a slight advantage. I also think he's at least 2 points better than Valverde. Not sure what you have Valverde on but I'm guessing 80 or 81.
Valverde is on 80 atm, which makes him be 2 pts lower than Quintana. As for the 83, you have a point, we will discuss it, but for now 82 seems fair.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 21-09-2014 13:17
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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matt17br wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Nibali's not overrated at all and a perfect 82. He won the Tour by 7 and a half minutes and 9 and a half minutes over Valverde.
If Froome and Contador are 83 then he's definitely 82, needs to be at least 2 points over Valverde. The only big issue I see amongst the really big riders is Quintana to whether he should be 83 or 82.
Quintana will stay on 82 mainly because he never fought Froome or Contador in a GT as a leader.
Fair enough, the other issue to really take into consideration are the TT stats. You've probably got Froome on about 80 which makes him far superior to Quintana in TT, even Nibali and Contador6 who normally have a TT of 76 suffer against Froome but can limit their losses. For this reason I feel that Quintana should be worth 83 to give him a slight advantage. I also think he's at least 2 points better than Valverde. Not sure what you have Valverde on but I'm guessing 80 or 81.
Valverde is on 80 atm, which makes him be 2 pts lower than Quintana. As for the 83, you have a point, we will discuss it, but for now 82 seems fair.
The reason I mention Froome's high TT is that he decimates lower tt riders like Valverde, Pinot and Quintana in GT TT's. For this reason I try to avoid selecting GT race circuits that have a really long TT stage before the start of the mountains, because I know before any of the big mountain stages have started Froome will already have quite a few minutes advantage and then once in the mountains again, he has a nasty habit with 83 of just being able to extend his lead even more. It kind of reminds me of the old days when Indurain use to race. He'd ride a long TT like Tony Martin and then set a big dot tempo on the big mountain stages after burning his team.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 21-09-2014 13:18
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 21-09-2014 14:31
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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About Top Riders in Hills... What do you think??
In my opinion, I have many doubts:
Valverde 82
Purito 81
Gerrans 81
Gilbert 81
Dan Martin 81/82
Kwiatkowski 81
Dani Moreno 79
etc... |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 21-09-2014 14:33
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
About Top Riders in Hills... What do you think??
In my opinion, I have many doubts:
Valverde 82
Purito 81
Gerrans 81
Gilbert 81
Dan Martin 81/82
Kwiatkowski 81
Dani Moreno 79
etc...
I'd wait for the RR WC.
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| Bosskardo |
Posted on 21-09-2014 14:53
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Sprinter
Posts: 1559
Joined: 07-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
About Top Riders in Hills... What do you think??
In my opinion, I have many doubts:
Valverde 82
Purito 81
Gerrans 81
Gilbert 81
Dan Martin 81/82
Kwiatkowski 81
Dani Moreno 79
etc...
I think:
Gilbert 80 - hasn't been the same
Gerrans 80 with good STA and better than others SP
Valverde 82 only if acompanied by lower STA
Dan compared to Valverde: if you give Dan lower hill than Valverde then he needs quite a lot higher STA (4-5).
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| 5hadows |
Posted on 22-09-2014 03:47
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Junior Rider
Posts: 32
Joined: 21-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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I think:
Gilbert 80 - hasn't been the same
Gerrans 80 with good STA and better than others SP
Valverde 82 only if acompanied by lower STA
Dan compared to Valverde: if you give Dan lower hill than Valverde then he needs quite a lot higher STA (4-5).
Gilbert hasn't been the 3 ardennes in a year rider for a while but he did win Amstel again so 81hil 72spr.
If Gilbert gets 81 then i think Gerro deserves 80hil with 74 spr. Gerro does it with the sprints more than the others.
The day when bike gears turn automatic. = Why not now? They did it with cars.
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 22-09-2014 07:49
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
Joined: 13-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Why is Kwiatek better than Gerrans  |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 22-09-2014 12:34
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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dark_x2012 wrote:
Why is Kwiatek better than Gerrans
Gerrans isn't a pure puncher. He isn't able to be with Valverde or Rodriguez on the Mur de Huy because of its slopes. He can resist f.e. in the LBL because the slopes aren't impossible at all. There are a lot of hills but the slopes hardly are harder than 10%. 80 is more than fair.
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 22-09-2014 12:49
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
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matt17br wrote:
dark_x2012 wrote:
Why is Kwiatek better than Gerrans
Gerrans isn't a pure puncher. He isn't able to be with Valverde or Rodriguez on the Mur de Huy because of its slopes. He can resist f.e. in the LBL because the slopes aren't impossible at all. There are a lot of hills but the slopes hardly are harder than 10%. 80 is more than fair.
Actually Valverde and Purito are climbers not punchers. Mur de Huy isn't a typical punchy hill and that's why pure punchers(Gilbert  ) suffer there. Look at last three years for a proof. The punchers win there only when they're at the top of their career |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 22-09-2014 12:59
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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dark_x2012 wrote:
matt17br wrote:
dark_x2012 wrote:
Why is Kwiatek better than Gerrans
Gerrans isn't a pure puncher. He isn't able to be with Valverde or Rodriguez on the Mur de Huy because of its slopes. He can resist f.e. in the LBL because the slopes aren't impossible at all. There are a lot of hills but the slopes hardly are harder than 10%. 80 is more than fair.
Actually Valverde and Purito are climbers not punchers. Mur de Huy isn't a typical punchy hill and that's why pure punchers(Gilbert ) suffer there. Look at last three years for a proof. The punchers win there only when they're at the top of their career
Hmm, I know that Valverde and Purito aren't only pucnhers, of course they're mainly great climbers. But they're the ones that do better than the rest of the world on high-sloped hills. The hill stat means this, I think. Gerrans is an excellent punchy-sprinter.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 22-09-2014 13:17
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Well Gerran's hasn't got the hill climbing ability of riders like Valverde, Rodriguez or Martin and he haasn't got the brute force of Gilbert. But what he has got is superior stamina and the ability if on good form to hold the wheel of the favourites and then due to a strong sprint can claim victory.
He showed that at LBL this year and first demonstrated it when he beat Cancellara at MSR a few years ago.
I'd put him a two points lower than the top ranked hill climbers say 79/80 depending on what the top stat is, make sure his stamina is near 80 and make sure his sprint is better than Valverde. Therefore if Gerrans is on good daily form he will be a favourite to win the big hilly classics. If riders like Rodriguez, Martin and Gilbert want to beat him then they need to drop him before or on the final climb.
Also I find the game AI really handles Gerrans badly, as in a number of races instead of holding the wheel or trying to work with the favourites for victory, he has a nasty habit of attacking usually solo on his own from the favourites (which is so unrealistic) usually to then just be reeled in before the final climb.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 22-09-2014 13:19
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| matt17br |
Posted on 22-09-2014 13:26
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Well Gerran's hasn't got the hill climbing ability of riders like Valverde, Rodriguez or Martin and he haasn't got the brute force of Gilbert. But what he has got is superior stamina and the ability if on good form to hold the wheel of the favourites and then due to a strong sprint can claim victory.
He showed that at LBL this year and first demonstrated it when he beat Cancellara at MSR a few years ago.
I'd put him a two points lower than the top ranked hill climbers say 79/80 depending on what the top stat is, make sure his stamina is near 80 and make sure his sprint is better than Valverde. Therefore if Gerrans is on good daily form he will be a favourite to win the big hilly classics. If riders like Rodriguez, Martin and Gilbert want to beat him then they need to drop him before or on the final climb.
Also I find the game AI really handles Gerrans badly, as in a number of races instead of holding the wheel or trying to work with the favourites for victory, he has a nasty habit of attacking usually solo on his own from the favourites (which is so unrealistic) usually to then just be reeled in before the final climb.
The last problem is just impossible to fix with an editor... The only way is lowering his FTR stat, that is though already quite low.
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| bwiggins |
Posted on 22-09-2014 14:47
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Domestique
Posts: 673
Joined: 10-12-2010
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We all know that Gerro should be 85 hill, 85 Sprint and 85 stamina... 
Wiggo and Simon Gerrans!
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 22-09-2014 15:10
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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matt17br wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Well Gerran's hasn't got the hill climbing ability of riders like Valverde, Rodriguez or Martin and he haasn't got the brute force of Gilbert. But what he has got is superior stamina and the ability if on good form to hold the wheel of the favourites and then due to a strong sprint can claim victory.
He showed that at LBL this year and first demonstrated it when he beat Cancellara at MSR a few years ago.
I'd put him a two points lower than the top ranked hill climbers say 79/80 depending on what the top stat is, make sure his stamina is near 80 and make sure his sprint is better than Valverde. Therefore if Gerrans is on good daily form he will be a favourite to win the big hilly classics. If riders like Rodriguez, Martin and Gilbert want to beat him then they need to drop him before or on the final climb.
Also I find the game AI really handles Gerrans badly, as in a number of races instead of holding the wheel or trying to work with the favourites for victory, he has a nasty habit of attacking usually solo on his own from the favourites (which is so unrealistic) usually to then just be reeled in before the final climb.
The last problem is just impossible to fix with an editor... The only way is lowering his FTR stat, that is though already quite low.
I always thought the FTR stat was for the ability of riders either in a breakaway or their ability to stay out in front once they were away. So you're saying that a good fighter stat means that a rider is more likely to attack solo than a rider with a low FTR stat?
If that's the case Gerrans FTR in my db is 76 which is not that low, for example Valverde is 74. So if Gerrans FTR stat were lowered to say 70 he would be less likely to attack solo near the end of a big classic?
Out of interest what will Ulissi's hill stat be? I ask because I think he is one of the hardest to get right. For example he's a great hill rider in stage races, but also seems to do really average in hilly classics and I've often noticed about how high some people say he should be rated. |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 22-09-2014 15:13
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Well Gerran's hasn't got the hill climbing ability of riders like Valverde, Rodriguez or Martin and he haasn't got the brute force of Gilbert. But what he has got is superior stamina and the ability if on good form to hold the wheel of the favourites and then due to a strong sprint can claim victory.
He showed that at LBL this year and first demonstrated it when he beat Cancellara at MSR a few years ago.
I'd put him a two points lower than the top ranked hill climbers say 79/80 depending on what the top stat is, make sure his stamina is near 80 and make sure his sprint is better than Valverde. Therefore if Gerrans is on good daily form he will be a favourite to win the big hilly classics. If riders like Rodriguez, Martin and Gilbert want to beat him then they need to drop him before or on the final climb.
Also I find the game AI really handles Gerrans badly, as in a number of races instead of holding the wheel or trying to work with the favourites for victory, he has a nasty habit of attacking usually solo on his own from the favourites (which is so unrealistic) usually to then just be reeled in before the final climb.
The last problem is just impossible to fix with an editor... The only way is lowering his FTR stat, that is though already quite low.
I always thought the FTR stat was for the ability of riders either in a breakaway or their ability to stay out in front once they were away. So you're saying that a good fighter stat means that a rider is more likely to attack solo than a rider with a low FTR stat?
If that's the case Gerrans FTR in my db is 76 which is not that low, for example Valverde is 74. So if Gerrans FTR stat were lowered to say 70 he would be less likely to attack solo near the end of a big classic?
Out of interest what will Ulissi's hill stat be? I ask because I think he is one of the hardest to get right. For example he's a great hill rider in stage races, but also seems to do really average in hilly classics and I've often noticed about how high some people say he should be rated.
Yeah, the ftr stats represents those 3 things, but mainly the one I said.
The stats matrix of this year makes basically all the riders with more than 70 FTR stat with a max of 85 (De Marchi-Voeckler). We will consider lowering his ftr stat now that you noticed it.
Ulissi is on 78 atm IIRC
Edit: I looked into the 1.3 db: Gerrans is on 73, not sure if we edited it before or it was already in the old db, while Valv is on 76, which makes sense to me, in the last years Valverde attacks more.
Edited by matt17br on 22-09-2014 15:17
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 22-09-2014 15:31
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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matt17br wrote:
[quote]Tafiolmo wrote:
[quote]matt17br wrote:
[quote]Tafiolmo wrote:
Well Gerran's hasn't got the hill climbing ability of riders like Valverde, Rodriguez or
Edit: I looked into the 1.3 db: Gerrans is on 73, not sure if we edited it before or it was already in the old db, while Valv is on 76, which makes sense to me, in the last years Valverde attacks more.
I'm still playing PCM 13 and with an older db as well, as I spent a lot of time adjusting certain things on it and didn't change it for a newer db, will do so soon when I get PCM 14 and update to your newest db. So Gerrans FTR stat on it is 76 (something I never touched) as FTR stats are usually one of the few things I wouldn't change.
It's a shame that the game through editing, can't be made to recognize that some riders like Rodriguez like steep gradient to attack on, while a rider like Gilbert prefers a less steep hill to attack on. It would make racing so much more realistic.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 22-09-2014 15:33
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| matt17br |
Posted on 22-09-2014 15:32
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
matt17br wrote:
[quote]Tafiolmo wrote:
[quote]matt17br wrote:
[quote]Tafiolmo wrote:
Well Gerran's hasn't got the hill climbing ability of riders like Valverde, Rodriguez or
Edit: I looked into the 1.3 db: Gerrans is on 73, not sure if we edited it before or it was already in the old db, while Valv is on 76, which makes sense to me, in the last years Valverde attacks more.
I'm still playing PCM 13 and with an older db as well, as I spent a lot of time adjusting certain things on it and didn't change it for a newer db, will do so soon when I get PCM 14 and update to your newest db. So Gerrans FTR stat on it is 76 (something I never touched) as FTR stats are usually one of the few things I wouldn't change.
So you were referring to the '13 version of the EP?
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 22-09-2014 15:34
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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matt17br wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
matt17br wrote:
[quote]Tafiolmo wrote:
[quote]matt17br wrote:
[quote]Tafiolmo wrote:
Well Gerran's hasn't got the hill climbing ability of riders like Valverde, Rodriguez or
Edit: I looked into the 1.3 db: Gerrans is on 73, not sure if we edited it before or it was already in the old db, while Valv is on 76, which makes sense to me, in the last years Valverde attacks more.
I'm still playing PCM 13 and with an older db as well, as I spent a lot of time adjusting certain things on it and didn't change it for a newer db, will do so soon when I get PCM 14 and update to your newest db. So Gerrans FTR stat on it is 76 (something I never touched) as FTR stats are usually one of the few things I wouldn't change.
So you were referring to the '13 version of the EP?
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