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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| felix_29 |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:27
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Spilak23 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
 I love his sense of humor!
Do you believe he is a shit rider who has come from nowhere?
Well, yes! Obviously. And Froome = him + 1000
Dude............
Wiggins was a track racer untill 2008. One of the best ever winning multiple gold Olympic medals. After the 2008 Summer Olympics, he started focusing on the road losing a lot of weight and finishing 4th in the Tour de France. He failed in 2010 but still won the Giro prologue. Then last year he rode very strong winning the Dauphine before crashing at the Tour. He finished 3rd in the Vuelta.
So being one of the best track racer's is coming from nowhere?
Being a good track rider is a completely different thing. He did races the the 4km-pursuit that take only a few minutes. He stops doing that in 2008 and is a top GC-rider the next year? Even mountainbiker, who have much longer races, need a lot of time to adapt to road races.
So yes, he pretty much came out of nowhere. I do not questioning that he has some talent, though.
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:27
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TheManxMissile wrote:
clearly ignoreing the 2009 4th tdf
2011 paris-nice podium
2011 1st dauphine
2011 3rd vuelta
2011 3rd wc itt
2012 3rd volta aglgarve
2012 1st paris-nice
2012 1st romandie
2012 1st dauphine
apart from these he has come out of nowhere
Dude... we all know he has this results.. of course baseball meant before that. Even then, I disagree with him, Wiggins was certainly not a shit rider.. but to train track for a lifetime then start focusing on road and be winning the Tour de France in 4 years time.. yeah, sure. Losing almost 10 kg to be able to climb mountains, and improving his TT massively? No way.
froome yeah kinda has come out of nowhere, but everyone has to have a breakthrough
Everyone? Would you mind giving examples of people who have a breakthrough coming out of nowhere? (remember = Cancellara is not an example of this)
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| Tjoertszc |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:28
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Spilak23 wrote:
Dude............
Wiggins was a track racer untill 2008. One of the best ever winning multiple gold Olympic medals. After the 2008 Summer Olympics, he started focusing on the road losing a lot of weight and finishing 4th in the Tour de France. He failed in 2010 but still won the Giro prologue. Then last year he rode very strong winning the Dauphine before crashing at the Tour. He finished 3rd in the Vuelta.
So being one of the best track racer's is coming from nowhere?
Then how do you argue for the team pacing him towards yellow in Paris?
And the man lost one third of his muscle mass - yet he is still able to produce more watts than ever and makes a mockery of Cancellara who is in good shape.
It just seems highly suspicious. Noone is able to deny that. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:30
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lluuiiggii wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
clearly ignoreing the 2009 4th tdf
2011 paris-nice podium
2011 1st dauphine
2011 3rd vuelta
2011 3rd wc itt
2012 3rd volta aglgarve
2012 1st paris-nice
2012 1st romandie
2012 1st dauphine
apart from these he has come out of nowhere
Dude... we all know he has this results.. of course baseball meant before that. Even then, I disagree with him, Wiggins was certainly not a shit rider.. but to train track for a lifetime then start focusing on road and be winning the Tour de France in 4 years time.. yeah, sure. Losing almost 10 kg to be able to climb mountains, and improving his TT massively? No way.
froome yeah kinda has come out of nowhere, but everyone has to have a breakthrough
Everyone? Would you mind giving examples of people who have a breakthrough coming out of nowhere? (remember = Cancellara is not an example of this)
fair points, i know bb meant before 09 and that was a surpris
i guess giving wiggins as an example of out of nowhere doesnt count?
(plus that would mean theres doping at Garmin, taking the total from this thread to Sky, Garmin, Cofidis, BMC, Astana and SaxoBank)
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| Ithaca |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:34
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There is the slight issue of Wiggins / Froome climbing very well (explanation = weight loss) AND TT'ing like Chuck Norris (explanation = ???). Weight loss would normally mean losing power. Beating the world's best TT experts is not normal for skinny climbers.
What really bothers me is Wiggins' reactions to doping-related questions. Reactions like that almost always spell "guilty".
His last reaction wasn't even to a question about him! He was being asked whether riders in general still feel the need to justify themselves after Di Gregorio's "incident". Apparently he took that question offensively, and went on a vocal rampage.
If he isn't guilty of doping, he's at the very least an arrogant bastard. Wouldn't know about Froome - haven't seen enough interviews to form an opinion on him yet.
Edited by Ithaca on 11-07-2012 19:36
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| pcm2009fan |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:39
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Ah well the argument rages on, and so does doping, whether we like it or not.
Personally, the whole argument (+ the recent USADA inquiry) has made me ill to the point where I don't actually care any more whether Wiggins, Froome, Merckx or Ricco were juiced up. And I've only been following cycling for a few seasons - I can imagine many arguing a case here don't in reality care very much either and are far more interested in unravelling this 'non-mystery'.
I think it's easy enough to tell, especially with the modern medical facts, who was (very) likely to have doped and when but at the end of the day only the riders and their 'doctors' know with absolute certainty and are in the position to objectively tell the truth about their own integrity, somewhat ironically.
The only thing I can add to the discussion is the hypothetical humour of the situation if the Sky riders are actually clean, after 500 posts of outrage and frustration!
That's how I feel anyway after reading these posts and observing the articles/statistics posted. A flawed one for sure, but I'm quite happy to stand by it for the time being. |
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| jph27 |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:41
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felix_29 wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
I love his sense of humor!
Do you believe he is a shit rider who has come from nowhere?
Well, yes! Obviously. And Froome = him + 1000
Dude............
Wiggins was a track racer untill 2008. One of the best ever winning multiple gold Olympic medals. After the 2008 Summer Olympics, he started focusing on the road losing a lot of weight and finishing 4th in the Tour de France. He failed in 2010 but still won the Giro prologue. Then last year he rode very strong winning the Dauphine before crashing at the Tour. He finished 3rd in the Vuelta.
So being one of the best track racer's is coming from nowhere?
Being a good track rider is a completely different thing. He did races the the 4km-pursuit that take only a few minutes. He stops doing that in 2008 and is a top GC-rider the next year? Even mountainbiker, who have much longer races, need a lot of time to adapt to road races.
So yes, he pretty much came out of nowhere. I do not questioning that he has some talent, though.
Peraud? Won French TT still Mountain Biking, and top ten at PN and Pais Vasco in his first year. |
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| alex valceanu |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:41
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Guys for god sake Look at how mant medals has Wiggins on track at then after focusing on the road he had good results icluding a podium in Vuelta and 4th place in TDF . And this year he has a very good team , dedicated to him , the profile of the races help him , with many km of ITT (Dauphine ,TDF ,even Romandie ) - for me are enough reasons to think that he is clean and that he deserves this Tour win by working very hard . Stop critising him until he gets caught (if he ever is ) |
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:47
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For me, Wiggins is the least surprising one of all. If there was a moment to put Wiggins' performance in doubt it was in 2009 when he came from nowhere to finish fourth.
The main question marks at this point are Froome, Rogers and Porte. In previous years (except of Froome's Vuelta, which is even more suspicious that this) only Rogers showed signs that he could finish the Tour in top 10. Now they control the pack like they are possessed and they let no one who posts a real threat to Wiggins to get away.
Even if you're a Sky fan, you can't say it's not at the very least suspicious how this guys came from nowhere to dominate the World's biggest cycling race.
Edited by alexkr00 on 11-07-2012 19:48
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| felix_29 |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:48
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jph27 wrote:
felix_29 wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
I love his sense of humor!
Do you believe he is a shit rider who has come from nowhere?
Well, yes! Obviously. And Froome = him + 1000
Dude............
Wiggins was a track racer untill 2008. One of the best ever winning multiple gold Olympic medals. After the 2008 Summer Olympics, he started focusing on the road losing a lot of weight and finishing 4th in the Tour de France. He failed in 2010 but still won the Giro prologue. Then last year he rode very strong winning the Dauphine before crashing at the Tour. He finished 3rd in the Vuelta.
So being one of the best track racer's is coming from nowhere?
Being a good track rider is a completely different thing. He did races the the 4km-pursuit that take only a few minutes. He stops doing that in 2008 and is a top GC-rider the next year? Even mountainbiker, who have much longer races, need a lot of time to adapt to road races.
So yes, he pretty much came out of nowhere. I do not questioning that he has some talent, though.
Peraud? Won French TT still Mountain Biking, and top ten at PN and Pais Vasco in his first year.
TTs suit mountainbiker a lot more than road races due to the short racing time.
Then he concentrated on road races but Top10s in PN and Pais Basco are real shit results compard to a 4th in the TdF. This year he focuses on the Olympic MTB race and sucks on the road.
And more important, mountainbiker can climb as the races have many uphill meters. Look at Evans or Hesjedal, former MTB riders and good climbers.
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| Ad Bot |
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| Tjoertszc |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:48
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alex valceanu wrote:
Guys for god sake Look at how mant medals has Wiggins on track at then after focusing on the road he had good results icluding a podium in Vuelta and 4th place in TDF . And this year he has a very good team , dedicated to him , the profile of the races help him , with many km of ITT (Dauphine ,TDF ,even Romandie ) - for me are enough reasons to think that he is clean and that he deserves this Tour win by working very hard . Stop critising him until he gets caught (if he ever is )
His records fail to explain how the team behind is massively overperforming. They have no results in mountain stages prior to last year.
Top riders from the past 5 years are struggling on every single climb, while Wiggins, Froome, Porte, and Rogers barely break a sweat.
Couple that with a team doctor with a background in doping - it of course leads to suspicions. |
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| marble |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:49
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issoisso wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
He rode the Giro last year. Probably the toughest GT of the last 15 years. Everybody who finished the Giro sucked in the Tour. This year, he focused on the Tour.
This was adressed in the very first post you answered.He rode the Giro and finished where? Right, 81st.
I remember watching my Giro 2011 DVD the other day, specifically the Etna stage, the first mountain stage. I specifically remember Porte getting dropped just as the climb starts. Later, Mickael Chérel gets dropped.....
....
You can't possibly justify that as "he was working for Contador"
Spilak23 wrote:
He is also with a new team, working for someone he probably respects (not possible with Contador who is only respected by Navarro, Hernandez and Noval).
Most of your arguments are very flawed, but this is just making things up out of thin air. Especially considering with a quick google search I can link to interviews where he talks up his respect for Contador, which he's done several times.
Spilak23 wrote:
This gives him extra motivation. Then, he is now with team Sky, a team known for it's excellent training of riders. ( You can think this is by using forbidden substances, I don't). These are some thing's that have changed.
The same tired argument that's been debated before. The same argument that Ferrari clients, Postal riders, Conconi riders, Cecchini riders, Fuentes riders, etc all used to justify their improvements. "It's the training that's so good"
Are you purposely not looking at his sixth place overall the year before though? It's not like 81st place was his best GT result before this year's Tour, he has been decent before aswell. Okay a breakaway got him up to sixth place, but without the time he gained there he would still have been 11th.. Which is much better than what anything he did last year.
I don't think Sky deserves the shitstorm they're getting here. It's naive to say that there is no way they are doped. But it's also naive to say that they are the only ones that are. If Sky can get away with it, then the other teams can get away with it aswell.
The fact that Wiggins lost weight doesn't mean there's no way he could become a better time trialist. If he could still produce the same amount of power that would mean he'd have more power per kilo. |
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| Tjoertszc |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:55
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marble wrote:
Are you purposely not looking at his sixth place overall the year before though? It's not like 81st place was his best GT result before this year's Tour, he has been decent before aswell. Okay a breakaway got him up to sixth place, but without the time he gained there he would still have been 11th.. Which is much better than what anything he did last year.
I don't think Sky deserves the shitstorm they're getting here. It's naive to say that there is no way they are doped. But it's also naive to say that they are the only ones that are. If Sky can get away with it, then the other teams can get away with it aswell.
The fact that Wiggins lost weight doesn't mean there's no way he could become a better time trialist. If he could still produce the same amount of power that would mean he'd have more power per kilo.
One way they could have avoided the shitstorm would have been to stick to their anti-doping principles and not hired Geert Leinders. The moment a team decides to go down the route of hiring team doctors with doping affiliations, they are initiating the shitstorm themselves. |
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| kumazan |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:56
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marble wrote:
Are you purposely not looking at his sixth place overall the year before though? It's not like 81st place was his best GT result before this year's Tour, he has been decent before aswell. Okay a breakaway got him up to sixth place, but without the time he gained there he would still have been 11th.. Which is much better than what anything he did last year.
Do you mean his 7th place? Yeah, he would have been 11th, but he still lost several minutes per stage to Nibali everytime they hit serious mountains. Now he can gain a minute back on him in a 3rd cat, after having reeled back VDB twice, and pulling the peloton for like 30km.
Nothing to see here, move on guys!
marble wrote:
The fact that Wiggins lost weight doesn't mean there's no way he could become a better time trialist. If he could still produce the same amount of power that would mean he'd have more power per kilo.
He must have more power per kilo. Much more, otherwise his climbing wouldn't have skyrocketed.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 11-07-2012 19:58
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marble wrote:
Are you purposely not looking at his sixth place overall the year before though? It's not like 81st place was his best GT result before this year's Tour, he has been decent before aswell. Okay a breakaway got him up to sixth place, but without the time he gained there he would still have been 11th.. Which is much better than what anything he did last year.
I didn't choose what was debated there. Last year was being debated by other people, so I jumped in.
As for 2010, it's been debated before as well, but to sum up quickly: Aside from the last mountain stage that was ridden extremely slowly until halfway up the final climb, he lost 4-6 minutes in every serious mountain stage.
Good for a 1st GT? Of course.
Good enough for this year to be considered a natural progression? Doesn't even begin to be close.
marble wrote:
I don't think Sky deserves the shitstorm they're getting here. It's naive to say that there is no way they are doped.
The only reason there's "a shitstorm" is because there's quite a bit of dirt on them and a lot of people try to refute that by stating over and over "oh wiggins is a good guy and brailsford is clean, they wouldn't dope!", and occasionally insist that the riders' past mediocre results somehow were a hint to their current performance.
marble wrote:But it's also naive to say that they are the only ones that are. If Sky can get away with it, then the other teams can get away with it aswell.
Then it's a good thing absolutely no one has said or even implied that
marble wrote:
The fact that Wiggins lost weight doesn't mean there's no way he could become a better time trialist. If he could still produce the same amount of power that would mean he'd have more power per kilo.
That's like saying my car won't necessarily go slower if I take two cylinders out because it might somehow keep the same amount of power. True in theory, impossible in practice.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| jph27 |
Posted on 11-07-2012 20:00
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I'd pay to read a book about cycling written by isso. Seriously. |
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| Bushwackers |
Posted on 11-07-2012 20:02
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I have a theory as to why Sky snubbed Danny Pate in the Tour team. He probably refused to take part in any of their enhancement, so they just refused to bring him. That would explain why he was on their A-team all year, but then didn't get selected for the Tour. Since most of the Sky team hasn't been at this level of dominance (while still riding extremely well) until now, it suggests that they have only started cheating for the Tour (perhaps to keep suspicions low for most of the season and reduce the risk of getting caught). When they tried to get Danny Pate to take part, he would have refused and that explains why they made the surprise decision not to bring him, which was against everyone's expectations.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 11-07-2012 20:02
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jph27 wrote:
I'd pay to read a book about cycling written by isso. Seriously.
"Useless random trivia, by some guy"
If it's about what happened in the past of cycling that you're interested in (since that's what I usually mention) I recommend David McGann's histories of the Tour and Giro, both in book form.
The Tour history is now available online. Prepare to spend 36 consecutive hours glued to it 
https://www.bikera...y1990.html
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| marble |
Posted on 11-07-2012 20:02
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kumazan wrote:
marble wrote:
Are you purposely not looking at his sixth place overall the year before though? It's not like 81st place was his best GT result before this year's Tour, he has been decent before aswell. Okay a breakaway got him up to sixth place, but without the time he gained there he would still have been 11th.. Which is much better than what anything he did last year.
Do you mean his 7th place? Yeah, he would have been 11th, but he still lost several minutes per stage to Nibali everytime they hit serious mountains. Now he can gain a minute back on him in a 3rd cat, after having reeled back VDB twice, and pulling the peloton for like 30km.
Nothing to see here, move on guys!
marble wrote:
The fact that Wiggins lost weight doesn't mean there's no way he could become a better time trialist. If he could still produce the same amount of power that would mean he'd have more power per kilo.
He must have more power per kilo. Much more, otherwise his climbing wouldn't have skyrocketed.
Yeah of course, his seventh place. I was thinking of Casar's sixth place for a moment there . My point however is that he has had a decent GT result before, it's not like he's only been finishing around 80th place. And now he's two years older so him being quite a bit stronger now shouldn't be that much of a surprise.. really.
And on the second point, wouldn't that also make him better at time trialing? I mean sure, being light isn't exactly making things easier. But more power per kilo should could definitely make up for that. |
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| jph27 |
Posted on 11-07-2012 20:03
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Bushwackers wrote:
I have a theory as to why Sky snubbed Danny Pate in the Tour team. He probably refused to take part in any of their enhancement, so they just refused to bring him. That would explain why he was on their A-team all year, but then didn't get selected for the Tour. Since most of the Sky team hasn't been at this level of dominance (while still riding extremely well) until now, it suggests that they have only started cheating for the Tour (perhaps to keep suspicions low for most of the season and reduce the risk of getting caught). When they tried to get Danny Pate to take part, he would have refused and that explains why they made the surprise decision not to bring him, which was against everyone's expectations.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
