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2015 Giro d'Italia - Week Two (16th - 23rd May)
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| gotlandrules |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:16
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The biggest problem i have with it is that Porte had a teammate 5 meters away yet he took Clarkes wheel just to have one extra rider to help pace him back, how is that not abusing the rules? 
Edit: He might have just done it because he was stressed and just blanked aswell, i just mean that it can be seen as abusing the rules.
Edited by gotlandrules on 20-05-2015 12:17
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:17
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madzdaman wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
madzdaman wrote:
But on the other hand, It's unfair that Porte even had the puncture in the first place, and i'd rather time be won where the riders have a level field rather than the giro be lost on one stage because he got a puncture.
Well, what should we do about this?
Life is unfair, shit happens, so Porte and his fans has to deal with it. Everybody in the peloton suffered several punctures during their careers, some of them in most crucial moments. We can be sorry, but we cant allow to break the rules just for sake of some "fairness".
My point was that it wasnt Porte trying to gain an unfair advantage, but rather negate an unfair disadvantage. I know shit happens and this isnt different to a puncture on the cobbles in the tour, but the rule is a bit harsh imo. it's not like you can gain an advantage from borrowing equipment either.
Of course you can. You gain and advantage opposed to situation where you would wait for your teammate, team car or neutral car after puncture, but Porte didnt wait and gained unfair advantage by forbidden help of other rider. I am not sure what is not clear here. 
Or if you have problem by calling that advantage, lets call it "lesser disadvantage" opposed to situation where he would act by the rules.
@Ian: I agree with you completely,100%, but why are you calling this a stupid rule? If we want riders obeying the rules, why not start with this situation where UCI followed its rules and be angry in situation where the UCI did not press them, like at Roubaix?
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 20-05-2015 12:18
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:20
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Ian Butler wrote:
If you're going to carry out your rules, do it consistently. Don't do a half-assed job.
Ian Butler wrote:
While you are correct in that example, I still think they should look at each situation differently and not blindly obey the rules - which they usually do!
Decide; do you want UCI to be consistent or to look at each situation seperately. The two are very difficult to mix.
You'd think that a court case would be a fairly simple procedure where you look at the law and say "this is okay" or "this is not okay". It's the type of "willy nilly" lawmaking that causes immence problems because laws are so open for debate.
A bureaucratic system is dependent on predictability. If one team is allowed to switch wheels, then what's stopping teams for collaborating further? If the UCI hadn't followed the rules in this case (2 minutes might be harsh, but that's a different debate) then a precedenc would be set, one that eventually will come back to haunt everyone involved.
This was a one-sided deal; not only did Orica in no way benefit from this, they were even hurt by it since it ment on of their riders were a tire short. A race should be decided on which team has the best riders and serviceteam, not who has the best connections and the best friends.
Imagine the outcry if a football team willingly conceeded a goal so that it ment some other team was relegated?
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:21
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@Avin: fair point.
But still, then their rulebook needs a drastic change (not specifically looking at this Porte situation). Some rules are ridiculous. Just two examples out of the UCI rulebook:
1. Riders need to know every race profile by hard. If a sign-giver-dude isn't in place, the riders are supposed to know where to go. Know the route. Okay, realistic, especially for 21 GT stages...
2. Riders need to obey the law at all times. Meaning, in a 50kph zone, they actually can't go over 50. Thankfully nobody ever got penalized on this rule, though 
Just to make a point, some things need to be looked over. And then we're back at the UCI discussion. Boy do they have work to do and nobody is doing it
Nothing much to add to the Porte case, though. It was a nice gesture but against the rules so okay, maybe the 2 minute sanction is fair. Still, I feel there are worse things going on going unpunished and UCI just randomly giving out sanctions when they feel like it. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 28-11-2024 10:20
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:24
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cactus-jack wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
If you're going to carry out your rules, do it consistently. Don't do a half-assed job.
Ian Butler wrote:
While you are correct in that example, I still think they should look at each situation differently and not blindly obey the rules - which they usually do!
Decide; do you want UCI to be consistent or to look at each situation seperately. The two are very difficult to mix.
You'd think that a court case would be a fairly simple procedure where you look at the law and say "this is okay" or "this is not okay". It's the type of "willy nilly" lawmaking that causes immence problems because laws are so open for debate.
A bureaucratic system is dependent on predictability. If one team is allowed to switch wheels, then what's stopping teams for collaborating further? If the UCI hadn't followed the rules in this case (2 minutes might be harsh, but that's a different debate) then a precedenc would be set, one that eventually will come back to haunt everyone involved.
This was a one-sided deal; not only did Orica in no way benefit from this, they were even hurt by it since it ment on of their riders were a tire short. A race should be decided on which team has the best riders and serviceteam, not who has the best connections and the best friends.
Imagine the outcry if a football team willingly conceeded a goal so that it ment some other team was relegated?
Don't just take those two sentences out of context and put them against each other
When I mean giving out sanctions consistently, I mean: do it for every rule. A rule gets broken -> review it and give out sanctions.
However, with each offence, look at the severity and the background and then give a sanction befitting the context, not: rule 3 leads to sanction X at all times.
Hope you get what I mean, hard to talk in justice-terms in a foreign language |
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| Agamir |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:26
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The fundamental difference with this case and for example Quintana last year is that there was no absolute proof of foul play, whereas here there is. For example, when Tiralongo helped pace Contador up a mountain a couple of years ago, or Eisel pulled in front during the Olympics, it's impossible to prove without a doubt that it's foul play. Here there's no such ambiguity, the rule was broken and must be enforced. It sucks for Porte but there can be no leeway in this. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:27
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Ian Butler wrote:
It was a nice gesture
This is where we would disagree the most. It was a stupid gesture and actually i think that Clarke should be punished/fined by his team.
About that speed limit rule, i think that it is absolutely no go to erase that, because the cycling rules have to follow the law (of course in reality of professional cycling, it is ignored, which is good thing). I think UCI cant erase that rule...
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:30
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
It was a nice gesture
This is where we would disagree the most. It was a stupid gesture and actually i think that Clarke should be punished/fined by his team.
About that speed limit rule, i think that it is absolutely no go to erase that, because the cycling rules have to follow the law (of course in reality of professional cycling, it is ignored, which is good thing). I think UCI cant erase that rule...
Yeah, but then where is the "justice"? I mean, the fact that UCI chooses the ignore certain rules and not ignore other rules is the basic problem I'm talking about.
Sure, I agree 100% that they ignore that particular rule. Imagine sprinting in a zone 30 kph
But where do they draw the limit? If half a peloton crosses for a train, it's no problem. Same for time limit, at times.
If Aru was the one with a wheel change, or Contador, would that have changed the situation? I wonder, that's all |
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| Agamir |
Posted on 20-05-2015 12:37
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Ian Butler wrote:
If Aru was the one with a wheel change, or Contador, would that have changed the situation? I wonder, that's all
Probably, they've shown time and time again that they don't favour Italians - it's not the 80's anymore.
Casagrande, a GC favourite, was DQ'd for sprinting irregularly during a Cat 3 climb, Bettini's been DQ'd.
A couple of years ago, Cav/Renshaw wasn't DQ'd after holding onto a car, but Viviani was for the same thing.
Quintana gained time on Aru as well last year.... |
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 20-05-2015 13:34
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I say the same as I saw someone post on Twitter; Clarke is gonna have a busy Giro if both Contador and Aru punctures 
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 20-05-2015 13:36
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cactus-jack wrote:
I say the same as I saw someone post on Twitter; Clarke is gonna have a busy Giro if both Contador and Aru punctures
Hah that is a good one
Though no need to worry. If Aru punctures, the "neutral" cars will bring him back like they did Nibali in the WC two years ago. |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 20-05-2015 13:38
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Ian Butler wrote:
[If Aru was the one with a wheel change, or Contador, would that have changed the situation? I wonder, that's all
The problem is that if it was Aru or Contador who had a flat. Clarke wouldn't have stopped and given his wheel so Porte gained an unfair advantage
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| clamel |
Posted on 20-05-2015 13:38
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Have a look at what many fellow riders say !!!!
https://www.cyclin...lty-172637
It is an uproar !!!!!
I agree with Jonathan Vaughters among tohers
How do you say "bullshit" in Italian?
____________________________________________
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“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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| Strydz |
Posted on 20-05-2015 14:09
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clamel wrote:
Have a look at what many fellow riders say !!!!
https://www.cyclin...lty-172637
It is an uproar !!!!!
I agree with Jonathan Vaughters among tohers
How do you say "bullshit" in Italian?
Well it's the rules of the sport so really if the riders and teams don't like it then why haven't they bothered to petition the UCI about changing it before? Pro's have already shown they don't mind breaking the rules whenever it suits them so even though 2 minutes is harsh i'm glad that someone is actually enforcing the rules of the sport.
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
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| Kirchen_75 |
Posted on 20-05-2015 14:15
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ACTION |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 20-05-2015 14:15
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Kirchen_75 wrote:
ACTION
Peloton in pieces! Contador in first group. Astana and Sky left behind
But now they seem to be getting back to the group.
still, a thinned out pack atm! |
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| Shonak |
Posted on 20-05-2015 14:19
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BMC are racing like it's a classic. 
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| clamel |
Posted on 20-05-2015 14:19
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Penalty to Contador riding without helmet !!!!!
____________________________________________
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“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 20-05-2015 14:19
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You saw that? Contador took off helmet during riding to adjust his cap.
It says so in the rules that's forbidden. Will he be punished?
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 20-05-2015 14:20
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clamel wrote:
Penalty to Contador riding without helmet !!!!!
You're allowed to take it off for a couple of secs if you put it back on afterwards.
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