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PCM.daily DB Stats discussion
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| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 15:45
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Jesleyh wrote:
Pellizotti2 wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
Don't forget that if he hadn't lost the 10 minutes, they wouldn't have given him space, others would defend their podium spot against him etc.
Cutting 10 minutes off his time is just not fair.
Tell me, where did he gain time on the other contenders because they allowed him space?
Well, I really don't know, haven't watched every second on my holiday. I just mean that you can't just cut 10 minutes off his time, that'd be unfair I think.
Of course not, but the point remains:
He never gained back any of the time he lost to Froome and Purito, and only a few seconds on Quintana in the 2nd TT.
Jesleyh wrote:
Pellizotti2 wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
Also, Purito can go to 80MO(I compare with Fickman's list btw), and just very high REC.
Nah, he deserves 81. Apart from one bad day, he was the 3rd best climber at the Tour.
Hmm... Maybe.
But a 80MO & High REC would make him the 3rd best climber in the TdF as well, since he'd be stronger in the Alps than the other climbers at 80MO.
The margin was bigger than that, though. Just look at the gap from Froome to Valverde on the stage to Semnoz, or the amount of time Purito and Quintana gained on the rest on Alpe d'Huez.
To me, it's obvious that those three were far better than everyone else.
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| CountArach |
Posted on 22-07-2013 15:47
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Grand Tour Champion
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Looking at someone more obscure, I haven't got a chance to check the DB but I'm willing to bet that Olivier Chevalier of Wallonie Credit is slightly wrong. I'm watching Tour of Wallonie now and he went over the hills in the front group of about 25. He also won the hilly 1.2 Ronde van Limburg earlier this year and numerous low level results on hilly courses. 72 or so for hill stat seems about right with a potential 4 or 5 given he is only 23.
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| fickman |
Posted on 22-07-2013 15:48
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Jesleyh like u have said a lot of times to other people if u dont agree with the stats u r free to edit them in your DB.
Abot Mollema im not sure how ill he was, its the same thing with him and other blanco riders in the last week of Grand Tours, they allways get ill or crash and while others have big balls to continue like Peraud they allways play the im ill, I crashed car. Almost averyone on the Top 10 went to the flor.
Mollema and Ten Dam had a great 1 and 2 week at Vuelta de España last Year and then they disappeared, coincidence??? |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 22-07-2013 15:53
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fickman wrote:
Jesleyh like u have said a lot of times to other people if u dont agree with the stats u r free to edit them in your DB.
Abot Mollema im not sure how ill he was, its the same thing with him and other blanco riders in the last week of Grand Tours, they allways get ill or crash and while others have big balls to continue like Peraud they allways play the im ill, I crashed car. Almost averyone on the Top 10 went to the flor.
Mollema and Ten Dam had a great 1 and 2 week at Vuelta de España last Year and then they disappeared, coincidence???
No, Mollema seriously had something since Tuesday. Though I agree that he wouldn't be able to hold on to his 2nd place otherwise, but maybe 5th.
And I don't say that to other people a lot of time, would be pretty dumb if I would say that. 
And what do you mean? That's only with Gesink.  I don't disagree with Mollema & Ten Dam's stats yet, since haven't seen the after-the-Tour stats yet.
And c'mon. Because 1 rider(Gesink) always crashes or get ill and use that as an excuse, it's not like every Belkin rider is like that, that's mean 
And for your last point(which is invalid anyway, since Mollema wasn't a leader and I think not even a co-leader there, and Ten Dam had about the same role as in this Tour), you could use REC stat
Edited by Jesleyh on 22-07-2013 16:05
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 16:19
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Jesleyh wrote:
raulvasa_9 wrote:
I think Valverde shiuld have 81 in Mountain, and 82 in hills, the same stats than Rodriguez. Don´t forget that without 10 minutes lost in the flat, he would finished 2 on GC, and after that he became to work for Quintana, and he finished in very high positions the climbs
No, I don't think that.
Don't forget that if he hadn't lost the 10 minutes, they wouldn't have given him space, others would defend their podium spot against him etc.
Cutting 10 minutes off his time is just not fair.
Also, 82 hills? Dafuq, why?
Well, when did he even get space? I dont remember him getting anything significant that wasn't brought back a few km's later.
About the hills, he's one of the best imo, but 82 is probably too high, since Purito and Gilbert etc. all have 80. I think the Hill stats could actually do with being a little higher f.e. Purito could be an 81 though
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 22-07-2013 16:21
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Just a general question here. Why don't we use stats up to 85 for the database? We have a range from 50 - 85 and it seems useless to only fill it up to 80 in some cases... Room for improvement could be a good reason but even then Gilbert/Rodriguez at hill 80 would be strange because it's not like they'll improve to 85 and they are among the world top so why not 83/84? |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 22-07-2013 16:24
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@Valv Said that to Pelli as well, I don't know, just thought that'd happen, I didn't watch every minute on my holiday
And yes, that's why I thought 82HI was ridiculous
@Ian Good question!
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 16:25
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Ian Butler wrote:
Just a general question here. Why don't we use stats up to 85 for the database? We have a range from 50 - 85 and it seems useless to only fill it up to 80 in some cases... Room for improvement could be a good reason but even then Gilbert/Rodriguez at hill 80 would be strange because it's not like they'll improve to 85 and they are among the world top so why not 83/84?
I think 85 is for the best guys ever in a certain discipline.
For example at the top of their level only Bahamontes, Gaul, Pantani..deserve 85 mountain.
Hence why potential 8 isn't used either.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 19:58
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 22-07-2013 16:26
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That's so useless. They're not around anymore. So why not make the strongest in the discipline NOW 85? Just seems like a waste... |
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 16:29
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Ian Butler wrote:
Just a general question here. Why don't we use stats up to 85 for the database? We have a range from 50 - 85 and it seems useless to only fill it up to 80 in some cases... Room for improvement could be a good reason but even then Gilbert/Rodriguez at hill 80 would be strange because it's not like they'll improve to 85 and they are among the world top so why not 83/84?
I think in past PCM's a lower hill stat made for better gameplay and more realistic results.
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 22-07-2013 16:30
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Because the time differences in the Tour are less significant compared to mountain stages? Or how is it explained?  |
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| fickman |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:34
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Jesleyh wrote:
And I don't say that to other people a lot of time, would be pretty dumb if I would say that.
And what do you mean? That's only with Gesink. I don't disagree with Mollema & Ten Dam's stats yet, since haven't seen the after-the-Tour stats yet.
And c'mon. Because 1 rider(Gesink) always crashes or get ill and use that as an excuse, it's not like every Belkin rider is like that, that's mean
And for your last point(which is invalid anyway, since Mollema wasn't a leader and I think not even a co-leader there, and Ten Dam had about the same role as in this Tour), you could use REC stat
I think u allready forgot how often u were saying that before the Giro when people were asking to lower Gesink stats
Some Belkin fans were claiming the only reason why Mollema and Ten Dam couldnt hold their palce in the GC was because of illnes and a crash in the TT (i must say i didnt saw Ten Dam on the flor or read about it and only saw Mollema going against the barriers, but couldt see any wounds on both of them) So as u can see the crash illnes thing not only apply to Gesink but on both of them as well.
Mollema iirc had a free rolle untill stage 8 were he cracked completly before that he was even netter place than Gesink in the GC.
As u can see there are some similarities between Vuelta 2012 and this Tour (awsome 1 week and then progressive lost of places in the GC)
And giving him 79 MO only beacuse of 1 Stage in the whole year is too much. 78 and low REC is fine. |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:37
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fickman wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
And I don't say that to other people a lot of time, would be pretty dumb if I would say that.
And what do you mean? That's only with Gesink. I don't disagree with Mollema & Ten Dam's stats yet, since haven't seen the after-the-Tour stats yet.
And c'mon. Because 1 rider(Gesink) always crashes or get ill and use that as an excuse, it's not like every Belkin rider is like that, that's mean
And for your last point(which is invalid anyway, since Mollema wasn't a leader and I think not even a co-leader there, and Ten Dam had about the same role as in this Tour), you could use REC stat
I think u allready forgot how often u were saying that before the Giro when people were asking to lower Gesink stats
Some Belkin fans were claiming the only reason why Mollema and Ten Dam couldnt hold their palce in the GC was because of illnes and a crash in the TT (i must say i didnt saw Ten Dam on the flor or read about it and only saw Mollema going against the barriers, but couldt see any wounds on both of them) So as u can see the crash illnes thing not only apply to Gesink but on both of them as well.
Mollema iirc had a free rolle untill stage 8 were he cracked completly before that he was even netter place than Gesink in the GC.
As u can see there are some similarities between Vuelta 2012 and this Tour (awsome 1 week and then progressive lost of places in the GC)
And giving him 79 MO only beacuse of 1 Stage in the whole year is too much. 78 and low REC is fine.
And to end the debate, he'll have 78. No need for further discussion really. 78 suits him perfectly at this time.
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:40
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Meh, you ruined the fun Alak 
But okay
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:41
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Rodriguez 80 MO? Seriously? He sucked in the Pyrenees.
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:44
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fcancellara wrote:
Rodriguez 80 MO? Seriously? He sucked in the Pyrenees.
81 iirc. And deservedly so. 4th on Ventoux, 2nd on Alpe, 2nd on Semnoz
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:44
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I agree partially with Ian. While 85 is kind of weird with hills, and the races being so tight and random in the Ardennes lately. Although for other disciplines I agree completely. Froome should have 83/84 if he is matching times of the best dopers ever.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:47
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It's likely both Froome and Quintana will have 83.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 17:53
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Alakagom wrote:
It's likely both Froome and Quintana will have 83.
I don't agree. I'd rather have Quintana at 82+ higher recovery and fighter than Froome.
Or put Froombot at 84. I don't see that as far fetched.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 18:10
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Alakagom wrote:
It's likely both Froome and Quintana will have 83.
If you put Froome and Quintana at the same, Quintana should overtake Froome very fast because he should improve much quicker no?
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