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News in March
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 20-03-2013 14:23
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World Champion
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Come on, are you gonna compare Contador to Gilbert now? Comparing winning the 3 GT's to winning the 3 Ardennes classics?
I think showing Gilbert's full career showed his potential better then showing just one year. I'm not going to post his 2010 results, look it up if you must. But from 2nd on WT ranking in 2010 to 1st on WT ranking in 2011, is that such a big leap forward?
Bad opponents, how else can you call Leukemans perfectly cooperating with Gilbert to lose in the sprint? Team Schleck not using their 2 to 1 advantage to Gilbert? Maybe this works when playing PCM on easy, but on the road it's just stupid. Though I maybe have to reword "bad opponents" to "bad tactics by his opponents" to be correct.
Once again, you can have your own opinion about doping, like everyone. There is no right or wrong there, we can debate about doping in the peleton anno 2013 all we want, only the riders can tell us the thruth. But you seem to think doping can be the only reason for Gilbert's 2011 results, and then I have to disagree with you.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| kumazan |
Posted on 20-03-2013 14:36
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Team Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 02-07-2009
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Ollfardh wrote:
I think showing Gilbert's full career showed his potential better then showing just one year. I'm not going to post his 2010 results, look it up if you must. But from 2nd on WT ranking in 2010 to 1st on WT ranking in 2011, is that such a big leap forward?
It's not that he went from 2ndd to 1st. He almost doubled his point score.
Ollfardh wrote:
Bad opponents, how else can you call Leukemans perfectly cooperating with Gilbert to lose in the sprint? Team Schleck not using their 2 to 1 advantage to Gilbert? Maybe this works when playing PCM on easy, but on the road it's just stupid. Though I maybe have to reword "bad opponents" to "bad tactics by his opponents" to be correct.
I have to wonder whether you watched that race. The Schlecks did try to attack in Saint Nicolas. Gilbert's answer? He counter attacked, dropping Andy and making Fränk struggle to hang on for dear life.
And was Joaquim RodrÃguez, also known as Murito (little wall in Spanish, god knows why  ) a bad opponent too for AGR and FW?
It's ok that you want to believe Gilbert was clean in 2011, and that cycling is mostly clean now. Everyone is entitled to have his own opinion. But when you start distorting facts so that they fit your preconceived opinion, it's hard to take that opinion seriously.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 20-03-2013 14:49
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
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Rodriguez wasn't that good in 2011, much like Gilbert wasn't that good in 2012.
And well, I don't see how one attack was enough to call the Schleck strategy good. Andy was just like "ok, well just ride a bit. I'll launch the sprint for you Frank, so you can win this one." They should have slowed down, attack Gilbert in turns until he passed. But they just kept riding to the finish line.
I respect your opinion that Gilbert was doped, even though I disagree with you myself. But don't try to make it a fact unless you can provide some evidence. In most countries around the world people are innocent until proven guilty.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 20-03-2013 14:50
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Come on, are you gonna compare Contador to Gilbert now? Comparing winning the 3 GT's to winning the 3 Ardennes classics?
That's all he won in 2011? The 3 ardennes classics? We must be talking about a different Gilbert. And a different universe, too.
Ollfardh wrote:
I think showing Gilbert's full career showed his potential better then showing just one year. I'm not going to post his 2010 results, look it up if you must. But from 2nd on WT ranking in 2010 to 1st on WT ranking in 2011, is that such a big leap forward?
Yet again a large fallacy. It's not about his ranking position, it's about the points and results.
This is the logic you're applying: "Nobody else scored any goals in the league last season except Jack who scored one goal and Mike who scored two. This year Jack scored 427 goals. He only went from 2nd to 1st ranked top scorer so that's not a big leap..."
Ollfardh wrote:
Bad opponents, how else can you call Leukemans perfectly cooperating with Gilbert to lose in the sprint?
Options for Leukemans:
- Sit on Gilbert. Worst possible choice. Have much less chances of staying away from the chasers and even if you stay away you'll still lose the sprint
- Attack Gilbert. Get caught. Have much less energy to stay away from the pack with
- Cooperate with Gilbert, finish 2nd.
Leukemans is widely known for tactically being just about the dumbest rider in the world, but this is an easy decision even for him
Ollfardh wrote:
Team Schleck not using their 2 to 1 advantage to Gilbert?
Gilbert was the one who attacked on the St. Nicolas, dropping Andy, temporarily gapping Frank while barely breaking a sweat and then being so dominant and sure of his sprint that he waited on the descent for Andy to rejoin.
There were no more climbs after that one.
Explain again how they had any advantage to use?
Ollfardh wrote:
Once again, you can have your own opinion about doping, like everyone. There is no right or wrong there, we can debate about doping in the peleton anno 2013 all we want, only the riders can tell us the thruth. But you seem to think doping can be the only reason for Gilbert's 2011 results, and then I have to disagree with you.
I'd love it if you actually paid attention to anything I say instead of repeatedly stating what my motivation is as something that it clearly isn't.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kumazan |
Posted on 20-03-2013 14:56
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Team Leader
Posts: 6662
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Ollfardh wrote:
Rodriguez wasn't that good in 2011, much like Gilbert wasn't that good in 2012.
2nd CQRanking 2010, 2nd CQRanking 2011. Yup, not that good.
Ollfardh wrote:
And well, I don't see how one attack was enough to call the Schleck strategy good. Andy was just like "ok, well just ride a bit. I'll launch the sprint for you Frank, so you can win this one." They should have slowed down, attack Gilbert in turns until he passed. But they just kept riding to the finish line.
Did you read what I said? They attacked, and Gilbert destroyed them. Andy was dead, and Fränk was pretty much done as well.
Ollfardh wrote:
I respect your opinion that Gilbert was doped, even though I disagree with you myself. But don't try to make it a fact unless you can provide some evidence. In most countries around the world people are innocent until proven guilty.
Of course. In a court. I can't see the judge from my seat. 
And nobody's making it a fact btw.
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| samdiatmh |
Posted on 20-03-2013 15:01
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 892
Joined: 29-12-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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is it possible to have a thread round here that doesn't discuss doping?
i'm thinking not  |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 20-03-2013 15:46
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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Wow that grew into a big deal while i was away...
Its funny how as soon as a rider you like, or a team you like, is accused of doping how everyone suddenly doesn't want to hear it.
The same arguments are trotted out regardless of rider or person arguing.
I hope now Ollfardh understands what us Sky fans have to put up with almost every stage and race. And Ian as well.
Trying to shift the topic on...
i know most people read CN, but i really liked this piece about snowy stages.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/g...nowy-races
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| dienblad |
Posted on 20-03-2013 15:58
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3772
Joined: 10-09-2010
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Nice piece. Snow is part of cycling in EUrope in february and march, even sometimes April!
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 20-03-2013 16:06
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Wow that grew into a big deal while i was away...
Its funny how as soon as a rider you like, or a team you like, is accused of doping how everyone suddenly doesn't want to hear it.
The same arguments are trotted out regardless of rider or person arguing.
I hope now Ollfardh understands what us Sky fans have to put up with almost every stage and race. And Ian as well.
Trying to shift the topic on...
i know most people read CN, but i really liked this piece about snowy stages.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/g...nowy-races
Sorry but you're no right to say that. Find me one post where I honestly accused Sky or any Sky rider of using doping. I don't do that. |
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| lluuiiggii |
Posted on 20-03-2013 16:43
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8542
Joined: 30-07-2010
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Ollfardh wrote:
I will be the first to admit I was wrong if something comes out on him, but I will support any rider until there's evidence. Anyway..
It seems that the discussion has gone mostly on how Gilbert's 2011 year was so much better than his other ones (and it certainly was), so even if this might be quite obvious, don't forget that Gilbert had as team doctor this guy. Nearly no suspicion there.
ps.: isso, you missed dienblad's question if you want to answer that, I'd be curious on the answer (or rather the arguments for the answer  )
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| kumazan |
Posted on 20-03-2013 16:52
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Team Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 02-07-2009
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lluuiiggii wrote:
ps.: isso, you missed dienblad's question if you want to answer that, I'd be curious on the answer (or rather the arguments for the answer )
issoisso wrote:
All you're doing is spouting the usual cliché. Someone voices legitimate concerns about a rider's strange changes in performance or blood values or association with certain people, and you jump in with the cliché that "it's every time anyone gets a good result", which is nothing but obvious hyperbole.
If that cliché were true we'd literally have 25 new accusations of doping every week. But we don't. Because that cliché is bullshit hyperbole.
An answer to Ollfardh, but no need to repeat the same again.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 13:28
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 20-03-2013 16:57
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 898
Joined: 17-11-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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There's a giant difference and a world of space between a ignorant, gullible retard and a cynical, sarcastic douchebag.
For the record, Ian and isso are neither, but obviously you are on opposite ends of the scale.
The ideal would be of course the middle ground.
Also, to quote isso from page 11:
issoisso wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
How many riders to Sky
Immediately with the suggestion that Sky will take the riders from the dope scandal team. Unbelievable. Why do you hate Sky so much?
That's my CLURPR impression
Not every doping discussion relates to Sky. This one in particular is all about Gilbert. I understand how you guys from the UK feel when someone is linking or implying things to a sky rider, but honestly it's not a crusade against the people over there, trust me  I hate how every rider who ever rode for Blanco/Rabo in whatever year is now being looked upon as a doper but it's unfortunately people's sentiments. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:01
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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issoisso wrote:
quote
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quote
You have to win the quoter of the year award Isso.
I hope you are aware that some posts you quoted, are not from me, it was just reactions to my posts. How you edited it, it looks like my posts, while i would never say such a nonsense.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 20-03-2013 17:13
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:09
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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samdiatmh wrote:
is it possible to have a thread round here that doesn't discuss doping?
i'm thinking not
You are on the cycling forum, how you can avoid doping ffs? 
If you dont know, for the past 50 years, almost everybody who won something big or finished in top 5 of something big, doped. Are we pretending it is not true?
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:11
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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Something to fuel the discussion a little : it's corticoids we're talking about, and they were the first choice for doping products during the pre-EPO and/or blood transfusion era.
Which means it's products that don't turn a donkey into a racing horse, Ã la Riis.
But, as the rider feels less pain and grows some extra muscles (not much, it's not steroids we're talking about), he can produce slightly more power, and hold a certain % of power for some more time than he'd do without it. Where EPO could arguably offer 20 % more power, corticoids probably offer something like 2 to 5 % more (it's hard to give a figure). Marginal gain.
Yes, Gilbert was very good before 2011, as I wrote yesterday evening, nobody is saying the opposite, still, he was nowhere near the point of being absolutely unstoppable like he was in 2011.
WT points mean almost shit, CQ reflects riders value much more accurately (although it's not perfect either).
Plus, besides working with Ibarguren Taus, the doctor (Jan Mathieu) who's supposed to have injected him cortisone admitted he did it, but that Gilbert had authorisations of therapeutic use (ATU) for it. So, it's hard to claim he wasn't on it. And if those ATU were legit (which I doubt, but anyway...), isn't it great how ill people can perform ?
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:11
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Ian Butler wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
Wow that grew into a big deal while i was away...
Its funny how as soon as a rider you like, or a team you like, is accused of doping how everyone suddenly doesn't want to hear it.
The same arguments are trotted out regardless of rider or person arguing.
I hope now Ollfardh understands what us Sky fans have to put up with almost every stage and race. And Ian as well.
Trying to shift the topic on...
i know most people read CN, but i really liked this piece about snowy stages.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/g...nowy-races
Sorry but you're no right to say that. Find me one post where I honestly accused Sky or any Sky rider of using doping. I don't do that.
I believe you got it wrong Ian, TMM was putting you along Sky fans, because your belgian heroes are also accused often.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:20
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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dienblad wrote:
Nice piece. Snow is part of cycling in EUrope in february and march, even sometimes April!
Fun fact: After that heroic ride in 1980 LBL Hinault never regained full mobility in his hand. But he'd won and that's all he ever cared about.
kumazan wrote:
lluuiiggii wrote:
ps.: isso, you missed dienblad's question if you want to answer that, I'd be curious on the answer (or rather the arguments for the answer )
issoisso wrote:
All you're doing is spouting the usual cliché. Someone voices legitimate concerns about a rider's strange changes in performance or blood values or association with certain people, and you jump in with the cliché that "it's every time anyone gets a good result", which is nothing but obvious hyperbole.
If that cliché were true we'd literally have 25 new accusations of doping every week. But we don't. Because that cliché is bullshit hyperbole.
An answer to Ollfardh, but no need to repeat the same again.
This
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
I hope you are aware that some posts you quoted, are not from me, it was just reactions to my posts. How you edited it, it looks like my posts, while i would never say such a nonsense.
Very sorry, my mistake. PM me to point them out and I'll fix it
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
If you dont know, for the past 50 years, almost everybody who won something big or finished in top 5 of something big, doped. Are we pretending it is not true?
I'm pretty sure it's not true. A very large portion yes, and almost everyone from 1993 onwards, but certainly not almost everybody. Of course, that's just my opinion.
dienblad wrote:
isn't it great how ill people can perform ?
Fun Fact #2: in 2006, 1 out of every 4 professional cyclists did NOT have a doctor's prescription for steroids to treat asthma.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:30
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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issoisso wrote:
Very sorry, my mistake. PM me to point them out and I'll fix it
That is not necessary, just wanted to point that out.
issoisso wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's not true. A very large portion yes, and almost everyone from 1993 onwards, but certainly not almost everybody. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Yeah, i exaggerated a lot (that is my problem often in the end), but 60s, 70s,80s were not much better, without proper tests and i meant something big like GTs. But i generalized too much, still major point is you cant avoid doping discussion when talking about cycling greats of recent past.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:32
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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issoisso wrote:
dienblad wrote:
isn't it great how ill people can perform ?
Fun Fact #2: in 2006, 1 out of every 4 professional cyclists did NOT have a doctor's prescription for steroids to treat asthma.
That wasn't a dienblad's quote. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 20-03-2013 17:32
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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@isso
And that is why cyclists are awesome!
@Ian
I never meant to insult you. Avin explained what i meant better than i did.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
