Don't flatter yourself to think you caused offense. And you should read my post again if you think it is full of prejudices. It is not.
I tried to make out that the difference in actions is not as hypocritical as you suggested, but clearly you disagree. Theres a big difference between a crash on a fast run in on a flat stage when the stage is on the line, to punctures caused by a saboteur on a stage where the peloton has nothing to ride for.
Nobody waited on Stage 6, and everybody bar Rolland waited today. The fact that you single out Wiggins to criticise is telling.
SportingNonsense wrote:
Congrats, you found a way to make another post of Wiggins-hate! You must be proud of yourself
No doubt if Wiggins hadn't waited today, people like you would have been having a go at him for not waiting. Grow up!
Wow, someone seems to be offended. I expected better from an admin. No need to take things so personal.
For the record:
- I don't hate Wiggins
- I think Wiggins is clean
- I think Wiggins deserves to win the Tour
Your post is filled with prejudices like these. Just because I point out this bit of utter hypocrisy from his actions doesn't make me a hater. It's sad that you jump to conclusions and put me down as a kid and a troll.
I don't care that Wiggins didn't call a wait in stage 6. He didn't have to. In my opinion, riders don't need to wait at all. The Tour waits for nobody. That's why it's wrong that Wiggins waited today. The fact that he waited now and didn't wait on stage 6 is hypocritical.
It proves to me, along with his deliberate riding into the final crash on stage 4 to get his finish time scratched that Wiggins is an opportunist. That's ok though, because I expect nothing less from a GC rider. A good GC rider should be an opportunist.
Today's wait was unnecessary and silly. No need to put me down as a trolling, hating kid just because I'm pointing this out.
So waiting for riders that have had problems due to some dickhead throwing tacks on the road is silly? It's called being sporting, he could have got Porte, Froome, Rogers to drive the peloton along at a fast pace but he chose to wait for good reason because he didn't want an outside factor of the race having an impact on the result and he didn't want to look like Rolland did today Edited by CLURPR on 16-07-2012 00:26
CLURPR wrote:
So waiting for riders that have had problems due to some dickhead throwing tacks on the road is silly? It's called being sporting, he could have got Porte, Froome, Rogers to drive the peloton along at a fast pace but he chose to wait for good reason.
Being sporting is nice and all, but in the biggest race of the year, where the stakes are so high, you are only sporting when you can afford to. At least that's what Wiggins has demonstrated so far. And I don't blame him for it.
CLURPR wrote:
So waiting for riders that have had problems due to some dickhead throwing tacks on the road is silly? It's called being sporting, he could have got Porte, Froome, Rogers to drive the peloton along at a fast pace but he chose to wait for good reason.
Being sporting is nice and all, but in the biggest race of the year, where the stakes are so high, you are only sporting when you can afford to. At least that's what Wiggins has demonstrated so far. And I don't blame him for it.
I see your point, but on Stage 6 he could hardly wait for other riders as his main rivals for the yellow jersey were in the same group as him and did not look like they were going to wait for the riders caught up in the crashes behind
CLURPR wrote:
So waiting for riders that have had problems due to some dickhead throwing tacks on the road is silly? It's called being sporting, he could have got Porte, Froome, Rogers to drive the peloton along at a fast pace but he chose to wait for good reason.
Being sporting is nice and all, but in the biggest race of the year, where the stakes are so high, you are only sporting when you can afford to. At least that's what Wiggins has demonstrated so far. And I don't blame him for it.
In a situation like this, the race usually listens to the yellow jersey. Cancellara was in yellow on that day, and even some of his leaders went down I think.
That's why we have seen this insane racing in the first week - part of the game. If you are placed like Evans, losing time on a flat stage won't hapen.
Riis123 wrote:
That's why we have seen this insane racing in the first week - part of the game. If you are placed like Evans, losing time on a flat stage won't hapen.
But if everyone has in mind being placed like Evans, even if their best realistic chance in GC is a Top 10 in the end, we get a nervous peloton with every team wanting to be at the front and an absurd amount of crashes.
On the subject of the stage 6 being different from today's stage, I disagree. In both cases, there would have been a radical change in the GC. In both cases, the change wouldn't have occured because of one rider's superiority in class over another. In both cases, there was plenty of kilometers left to do something about it.
In regard of Wiggins not being in the position to do something about it, I somewhat agree. He indeed wasn't wearing the yellow jersey at that time, and his lead wasn't as substantial as it is now. Still, he was ranked the best of all the GC riders. He could have still tried to do something about it by trying to call a wait, or even trying to convince Cancellara to do so. Of course, I can't tell if he did anything of this.
So in the end, is Wiggins showing hypocrisy or not? Well, I think he does. If he truely cared so much about being a good sport then I personally think we would have seen different results on stages 4 and 6. I can certainly understand where people are coming from in terms of stage 6, but there is one thing people need to remember:
Wiggins is one of the world's best cyclists. I understand that everyone from the UK loves Wiggins (I would too if I was British), but being a top athlete that doensn't necessarily make someone an angel in terms of his personality. I am convinced that what he did today was done to simply create some goodwill, and that what he said to the cameras was like listening to a politician.
ShortsNL wrote:
On the subject of the stage 6 being different from today's stage, I disagree. In both cases, there would have been a radical change in the GC. In both cases, the change wouldn't have occured because of one rider's superiority in class over another. In both cases, there was plenty of kilometers left to do something about it.
In regard of Wiggins not being in the position to do something about it, I somewhat agree. He indeed wasn't wearing the yellow jersey at that time, and his lead wasn't as substantial as it is now. Still, he was ranked the best of all the GC riders. He could have still tried to do something about it by trying to call a wait, or even trying to convince Cancellara to do so. Of course, I can't tell if he did anything of this.
So in the end, is Wiggins showing hypocrisy or not? Well, I think he does. If he truely cared so much about being a good sport then I personally think we would have seen different results on stages 4 and 6. I can certainly understand where people are coming from in terms of stage 6, but there is one thing people need to remember:
Wiggins is one of the world's best cyclists. I understand that everyone from the UK loves Wiggins (I would too if I was British), but being a top athlete that doensn't necessarily make someone an angel in terms of his personality. I am convinced that what he did today was done to simply create some goodwill, and that what he said to the cameras was like listening to a politician.
I think Wiggins doesn't care what people think of him.
More likely he used it as an advantage to stop others from attacking him, if he used the tacks thing advantagously at all.
To say he's a hypocrite for not stopping the race on stage 6 is absolutely absurd though.
ShortsNL wrote:
On the subject of the stage 6 being different from today's stage, I disagree. In both cases, there would have been a radical change in the GC. In both cases, the change wouldn't have occured because of one rider's superiority in class over another. In both cases, there was plenty of kilometers left to do something about it.
In regard of Wiggins not being in the position to do something about it, I somewhat agree. He indeed wasn't wearing the yellow jersey at that time, and his lead wasn't as substantial as it is now. Still, he was ranked the best of all the GC riders. He could have still tried to do something about it by trying to call a wait, or even trying to convince Cancellara to do so. Of course, I can't tell if he did anything of this.
So in the end, is Wiggins showing hypocrisy or not? Well, I think he does. If he truely cared so much about being a good sport then I personally think we would have seen different results on stages 4 and 6. I can certainly understand where people are coming from in terms of stage 6, but there is one thing people need to remember:
Wiggins is one of the world's best cyclists. I understand that everyone from the UK loves Wiggins (I would too if I was British), but being a top athlete that doensn't necessarily make someone an angel in terms of his personality. I am convinced that what he did today was done to simply create some goodwill, and that what he said to the cameras was like listening to a politician.
So what about Nibali? he was well placed, is considered a threat. He didnt stop the peloton on stage 6, but wanted to slow things down today, is he a hypocrite?
Mass crashes on sprint stages in week 1 are very different to punctures on a mountain stage caused by tacks on the road.
This is one part of cycling, there is an unwritten code of courtesy. It doesnt apply on flat stages with a mass crash. It does apply on a mountain stage when a mechanical prevents a main contender from sitting in the group he was with. Evans was comfortably in that lead peloton group.
I think what Sky, and liquigas and lotto did was right. They waited for Evans to come back. They only chased down Rolland, beacuse he was being disrespectful.
We've seen teams do this before, and recently. It happened in 2010 when Saxobank neutralized racing on stage 3 (i think).
It was a nice gesture, but not a sacrifice. Lets leave it at that. The stage was set and done for the GC riders at that point.
And to compare the various incidents, one also has to consider the situations. Waiting for an unlucky rider when you got nothing to lose is fair and even somewhat expected. Waiting during a critical part of a race, where you potentially stand to lose more than an advantage gained from an unlucky competitor is a completely different matter, and would border to stupidity.
If you consider a scenario where for example Evans needed to take time out of Wiggins on the final mountain finish of the tour to stay clear on the final ITT. Wiggins punctures half way up the climb. If Evans waits, it's no longer just a gesture, but basically handing the GC to Wiggins, giving away his only chance to drop Wiggins (he could possibly have dropped Wiggins without the puncture). This would be a fairly extreme case, and very different from the incident today.
So imo it's very difficult to compare the various situations directly. You gotta look at each situation individually.
TheManxMissile wrote:
Mass crashes on sprint stages in week 1 are very different to punctures on a mountain stage caused by tacks on the road.
This is one part of cycling, there is an unwritten code of courtesy. It doesnt apply on flat stages with a mass crash. It does apply on a mountain stage when a mechanical prevents a main contender from sitting in the group he was with.
[...]
We've seen teams do this before, and recently. It happened in 2010 when Saxobank neutralized racing on stage 3 (i think).
Which was a flat stage with a mass crash
(just to make clear, I agree with you and some others. I think it depends on situation, each one needs to be analyzed individually and you can hardly compare different ones/establish a 'rule' which applies for all of them, and imo Wiggins isn't a hypocrite)
TheManxMissile wrote:
Mass crashes on sprint stages in week 1 are very different to punctures on a mountain stage caused by tacks on the road.
This is one part of cycling, there is an unwritten code of courtesy. It doesnt apply on flat stages with a mass crash. It does apply on a mountain stage when a mechanical prevents a main contender from sitting in the group he was with.
[...]
We've seen teams do this before, and recently. It happened in 2010 when Saxobank neutralized racing on stage 3 (i think).
Which was a flat stage with a mass crash
(just to make clear, I agree with you and some others. I think it depends on situation, each one needs to be analyzed individually and you can hardly compare different ones/establish a 'rule' which applies for all of them, and imo Wiggins isn't a hypocrite)
Same, I dont find him a hypocrite.....for this scenario
To me, it seems like people are just trying their hardest to find a reason that they can justify hating on Wiggins.
And imo, if we are going to analyse races this closely, we would probably find that over half the peloton has been hypocritical at some point in their career, on the road. Sometimes they have to make quick decisions, and things like this aren't always in the back of their mind.
I have a completely different view on it all, in amateur racing, if you puncture, will everyone sit up and wait for you while you fix it or replace your wheel, they wouldn't, its racing, you have luck and you have bad luck. I can understand today why they did sit up and in a way can see why, as it was a greater cause of their control (sabotage). But they do the same for a normal puncture of a contender. Yes I know its sporting to do so but your here to win regardless of the circumstances, what happens to others isn't in your control.
You can see the play to win attitude in me is strong, but that's a part of who I am. Personally I wouldn't sit up for anyone who suffers a puncture, that;s because of my urge to win regardless!
Slate and call em stupid all you want but that's part of my personality therefore that is why I think differently on the whole situation.
Edited by Ste117 on 16-07-2012 02:54
Ste117 wrote:
I have a completely different view on it all, in amateur racing, if you puncture, will everyone sit up and wait for you while you fix it or replace your wheel, they wouldn't, its racing, you have luck and you have bad luck. I can understand today why they did sit up and in a way can see why, as it was a greater cause of their control (sabotage). But they do the same for a normal puncture of a contender. Yes I know its sporting to do so but your here to win regardless of the circumstances, what happens to others isn't in your control.
You can see the play to win attitude in me is strong, but that's a part of who I am. Personally I wouldn't sit up for anyone who suffers a puncture, that;s because of my urge to win regardless!
Slate and call em stupid all you want but that's part of my personality therefore that is why I think differently on the whole situation.
I understand that, but the biggest problem with that reasoning that I have is that you aren't really playing to win, because the guy that you are playing against isn't playing at all, because he has to stop riding.
Ste117 wrote:
I have a completely different view on it all, in amateur racing, if you puncture, will everyone sit up and wait for you while you fix it or replace your wheel, they wouldn't, its racing, you have luck and you have bad luck. I can understand today why they did sit up and in a way can see why, as it was a greater cause of their control (sabotage). But they do the same for a normal puncture of a contender. Yes I know its sporting to do so but your here to win regardless of the circumstances, what happens to others isn't in your control.
You can see the play to win attitude in me is strong, but that's a part of who I am. Personally I wouldn't sit up for anyone who suffers a puncture, that;s because of my urge to win regardless!
Slate and call em stupid all you want but that's part of my personality therefore that is why I think differently on the whole situation.
I refuse to accept you've just compared a practical situation in amateur races with the TdF peloton.
But what sort of human being would do that, for me it has completely overshadowed this TDF and put a real damper on it. I feel really sad after to day that there are some idiotic fans who think its a good idea to fill the road with tacks, poor Kiserlovski has a broken collarbone because of it, I hope the people who done it are proud of their days work!
Ste117 wrote:
But what sort of human being would do that, for me it has completely overshadowed this TDF and put a real damper on it. I feel really sad after to day that there are some idiotic fans who think its a good idea to fill the road with tacks, poor Kiserlovski has a broken collarbone because of it, I hope the people who done it are proud of their days work!
They're hardly fans, no? It's like those who throw bricks off freeway overpasses (bridges) onto oncoming cars to see if they can hit and if so what they will do. Lower stakes, perhaps (Kiserlovski might not feel so tonight) but it's a similar motivation. It's a rather sociopathic sentiment, ultimately, based tightly around the individual/group's own issues and their perception of the outside world and their complex but limited connection to it. It's not really about cycling.
As for the leaders waiting for Cadel, I think it's nice that they did - all very gentlemanly, but it wouldn't seem a huge sin if they hadn't either. Random stuff happens in the TdF, albeit less bizarre. A puncture is a puncture is a puncture. Debate on whether Wiggins and his silly sideburns should have waited or not is all rather moot. Now, if he'd been 2 minutes behind in GC we'd have a meatier discussion.
[edit for typo - can't type straight today. Someone spiked my Sapporo!]
Edited by 9-Ball on 16-07-2012 05:03
It was eleven more than necessary. Jacques Anquetil
Don't flatter yourself to think you caused offense. And you should read my post again if you think it is full of prejudices. It is not.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
