Aquarius wrote: Giro 2013 top 10 :
1 Vincenzo Nibali Astana en 84 h 53 min 28 s Ferrari
2 Rigoberto Urán Sky + 4 min 43 s Sky, 'nuff said
3 Cadel Evans BMC Racing 5 min 52 s not sure, but as a reward for his career I give him a "not clean" award
4 Michele Scarponi Lampre-Merida 6 min 48 s Zapatero
5 Carlos Betancur AG2R La Mondiale 7 min 28 s Call it what you want, but I don't have much faith in those recently discovered Colombians
6 Przemysław Niemiec Lampre-Merida 7 min 43 s Lampre, 'nuff said
7 Rafał Majka Saxo-Tinkoff 8 min 9 s Saxo or Tinkoff, I'm not sure which is the keyword here
8 Beñat Intxausti Movistar 10 min 26 s Nationality plus team, easy case
9 Mauro Santambrogio Vini Fantini-Selle Italia 10 min 32 s He got caught, but I never trusted him anyway
10 Domenico Pozzovivo AG2R La Mondiale 10 min 59 s AG2R, is not short for bread and water, works with Betancur too, but Pozzo is probably the most credible guy in that top 10
I admit being harsh on some of these riders, and I despise Di Luca, but, again, I'm not sure he's 100 % wrong.
Why are you still following cycling?
I don't know. I don't think I'm living in a fairy tale with unicorns and all that, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't live at all.
Does that make sense to you ?
I thought Evans had a clean reputation, or am I mistaken?
(non related, but curious) I heard Sastre could've been clean here on the site a while ago, or was that my imagination?
Also, doping is in every sport. Probably even more in tennis and football than in cycling, since there's less or no testing. But the beauty of the sport remains and you don't have to stop watching because of doping.
Cycling is one of the most beautiful sports in the world, it will need a lot more to reck that for some people, I guess
Aquarius wrote: Giro 2013 top 10 :
1 Vincenzo Nibali Astana en 84 h 53 min 28 s Ferrari
2 Rigoberto Urán Sky + 4 min 43 s Sky, 'nuff said
3 Cadel Evans BMC Racing 5 min 52 s not sure, but as a reward for his career I give him a "not clean" award
4 Michele Scarponi Lampre-Merida 6 min 48 s Zapatero
5 Carlos Betancur AG2R La Mondiale 7 min 28 s Call it what you want, but I don't have much faith in those recently discovered Colombians
6 Przemysław Niemiec Lampre-Merida 7 min 43 s Lampre, 'nuff said
7 Rafał Majka Saxo-Tinkoff 8 min 9 s Saxo or Tinkoff, I'm not sure which is the keyword here
8 Beñat Intxausti Movistar 10 min 26 s Nationality plus team, easy case
9 Mauro Santambrogio Vini Fantini-Selle Italia 10 min 32 s He got caught, but I never trusted him anyway
10 Domenico Pozzovivo AG2R La Mondiale 10 min 59 s AG2R, is not short for bread and water, works with Betancur too, but Pozzo is probably the most credible guy in that top 10
I admit being harsh on some of these riders, and I despise Di Luca, but, again, I'm not sure he's 100 % wrong.
Why are you still following cycling?
I don't know. I don't think I'm living in a fairy tale with unicorns and all that, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't live at all.
Does that make sense to you ?
Not really no.
I can't follow something (not only cycling) and thinking "ooh, he's a liar, he's a cheater, ...." but that's just me, maybe.
I don't think I have to justify why I follow cycling. I'll follow cycling if I like it that way.
My point was : there may be many doped guys in the pro peloton, there may be a lot of dopers among the top 10 of big races, but there's much more about cycling than just doped riders. I could write down a long list of why I like this sport, but it wouldn't be the appropriated topic.
Ian Butler wrote:
I thought Evans had a clean reputation, or am I mistaken?
(non related, but curious)
I think he was working with Ferrari a few years back
The story says it only lasted the time of a field effort test, where Ferrari acknowledged Cuddles' big engine.
I have little factual evidence against Evans, just circumstantial ones.
- Coming from MTB
- Getting decent results in GC in times of heavy EPO and blood transfusions uses and abuses
- Has been in many dodgy teams : Saeco, Mapei, T-Mobile, (Lotto), and BMC
I put Lotto between brackets because even though they might not be or have been the cleanest team ever, they're far less dirty (in my eyes at least) than the rest of the list. BMC is Phonak 2.0 before anyone asks.
So just to post it in the thread, some cyclingnews stuff everybody probably read by now anyways: Peloton incl. Nibali react to Di Luca statements. Love Nibali's quote: "I’m sorry to say this because he was a great teammate, but now I can only think that he has become a bit brain-damaged."
About the Giro 2013 Top 10 list: Seems to be me like many of the guys are just presumed dopers because of their nationality or the team they belong to. That's not exactly fair to them, especially when you consider the current financial status of the pro cycling world. I mean, let's presume a guy like Majka gets an offer from Saxo and just because of the shady past, he should turn it down? Riders do make their own decisions, not the team. In that case, you don't really make a distinction between the rider and the team, and neither between past and present. Plus, some stuff like Nibali or Evans, that's just rumours. Granted; of course all of them can turn out to be dopers, but I hope not.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Also, doping is in every sport. Probably even more in tennis and football than in cycling, since there's less or no testing.
Impact of doping in performance of an actual game of football is way much smaller than in cycling.
It's less than in cycling, but if you're faster, more powerful, jump higher, never get tired, are more relieved for set pieces, etc. Not just one player but the whole team, on the length of one season it makes it unstoppable if it competes against clean teams only.
If it was so useless, why did the Juventus have as much stuff as a medium-sized city hospital ?
As a blatant example, see how a very average South-Korea in 2002 made its way to the semi-finales (leave that poor ref alone, the Italians would have killed the match earlier if they had been able to), or basically any team Guus Hiddink took care of at that time.
And it's not like if the other teams were clean at all.
Also, doping is in every sport. Probably even more in tennis and football than in cycling, since there's less or no testing.
Impact of doping in performance of an actual game of football is way much smaller than in cycling.
If you can make the same tackles and runs after 85 minutes that you could make at the start of the game then you are going to win against a team that is tiring naturally.
Smaller effect than an endurance sport? Sure. Still a notable effect? Definitely.
Edit: Zabel'd
Edited by CountArach on 22-01-2014 19:59
Also, doping is in every sport. Probably even more in tennis and football than in cycling, since there's less or no testing.
Impact of doping in performance of an actual game of football is way much smaller than in cycling.
Yes, but using products to enhance their muscle building to improve strength is a pretty big advantage to, for example, defenders...
Okay, but look at Barcelona (not saying they aren't using some shit), their success is based on one thing and one thing only: ball goes faster than human. Their style of play needs no endurance or physical strength, just team chemistry, movement without the ball and passing technique.
I've been told by one of Ronaldo's old personal trainers in person that he used/uses steroids, or at least while he was working with him... I doubt that he's alone in this practice.
Also, doping is in every sport. Probably even more in tennis and football than in cycling, since there's less or no testing.
Impact of doping in performance of an actual game of football is way much smaller than in cycling.
Yes, but using products to enhance their muscle building to improve strength is a pretty big advantage to, for example, defenders...
Okay, but look at Barcelona (not saying they aren't using some shit), their success is based on one thing and one thing only: ball goes faster than human. Their style of play needs no endurance or physical strength, just team chemistry, movement without the ball and passing technique.
Yeah, no involvement with Fuentes or nothing. Sure.
Also, doping is in every sport. Probably even more in tennis and football than in cycling, since there's less or no testing.
Impact of doping in performance of an actual game of football is way much smaller than in cycling.
Yes, but using products to enhance their muscle building to improve strength is a pretty big advantage to, for example, defenders...
Okay, but look at Barcelona (not saying they aren't using some shit), their success is based on one thing and one thing only: ball goes faster than human. Their style of play needs no endurance or physical strength, just team chemistry, movement without the ball and passing technique.
Yeah, nevermind running. Also you forgot butterflies and unicorns.
Also, doping is in every sport. Probably even more in tennis and football than in cycling, since there's less or no testing.
Impact of doping in performance of an actual game of football is way much smaller than in cycling.
It's less than in cycling, but if you're faster, more powerful, jump higher, never get tired, are more relieved for set pieces, etc. Not just one player but the whole team, on the length of one season it makes it unstoppable if it competes against clean teams only.
If it was so useless, why did the Juventus have as much stuff as a medium-sized city hospital ?
As a blatant example, see how a very average South-Korea in 2002 made its way to the semi-finales (leave that poor ref alone, the Italians would have killed the match earlier if they had been able to), or basically any team Guus Hiddink took care of at that time.
And it's not like if the other teams were clean at all.
I thought that what separates good teams from great teams is that good teams have 11 great players while great teams can basically replace every starting eleven player with a great player which make them last through season without really losing their level of performance.
Talking about South Korea, I never really looked at their performance in this type of aspect. Always thought that Italy and Spain games were just fucking disgrace from the standpoint of referring.
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that I think about football more as a sport of tactics and skill rather than physical abilities.
And Miguel you could learn to read what I'm saying. I just don't see the point of using anything considering the fact how they play.
Edited by I_Mayo on 22-01-2014 20:12
South Korea was simply more due to the fact that most national teams have only a few practice days together, while the Koreans ended their league months in advance and spent all that time training together like a club team
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
I_Mayo wrote:
Okay, but look at Barcelona (not saying they aren't using some shit), their success is based on one thing and one thing only: ball goes faster than human. Their style of play needs no endurance or physical strength, just team chemistry, movement without the ball and passing technique.
Both Barcelona and Real Madrid have training plans for the whole team linked to Fuentes/Op Puerto Fuentes said it himself that he had clients in football, tennis, etc. In fact, more than 200 athletes are believed to have been involved in Op Puerto, yet only the cyclists have been named and chased. There's no reason to believe cycling has more doping than the other sports; in fact, I believe it's quite the opposite.
Heredia: Track and field, swimming, cross-country skiing and cycling can no longer be saved. Golf? Not clean either. Soccer? Soccer players come to me and say they have to be able to run up and down the touchline without becoming tired, and they have to play every three days. Basketball players take fat burners – amphetamines, ephedrin. Baseball? Haha. Steroids in pre-season, amphetamines during the games. Even archers take downers so that their arm remains steady. Everyone dopes.
Aquarius wrote:
It's less than in cycling, but if you're faster, more powerful, jump higher, never get tired, are more relieved for set pieces, etc.
Doesn't avoiding/recovering from injuries also play a big role? Taking f.e. Ray Lewis:
Spoiler
When Bertrand Berry and Ty Warren suffered a complete tear of their triceps, it took them six months to recover. When Arizona left tackle Levi Brown suffered a complete tear of his triceps in August 2012, the Cardinals immediately put him on their season-ending injured list. When Ray Lewis suffered a complete tear of his triceps in mid-October, we thought he was finished for the season … only he returned to action a little more than two months later. During the third month of his “recovery,” he made 17 tackles in a double-overtime playoff game in Denver. In 13-degree weather. At age 37.
