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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| kumazan |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:50
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Aquarius wrote:
I figure those marked with an asterisk started the climb at a different time than the leaders.
U25 riders. 
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| issoisso |
Posted on 17-07-2013 22:50
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Tour de France Champion
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Edited above
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Metriz- |
Posted on 17-07-2013 23:10
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Domestique
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issoisso wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
Sastre's first 3 or 4 km were absolutely insane though. I reckon he did like 490 normalized Watts during 12 or 15 minutes there. Of course he had to pay that later.
He attacked, was brought back, attacked again. Hence the speed.
As Riis always made a point of saying often: 'Sastre is far more talented than any of you will ever know'. Sounds like he's talking about a clean rider, no?
Also criticized for not "preparing properly", yet seemed like one of the most dedicated guys who loves cycling.
He rode for Bjarne Riis, yet he was never mentioned as a client for Ferrari, Cecchini or Fuentes.
Those are all good signs, but I still doubt he was completely clean but probably as close as pro cyclists get. |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 18-07-2013 00:28
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issoisso wrote:
mb2612 wrote:
I am very interested to see how Froome's time measures up to Sastre's tomorrow.
Probably minutes faster just like on the other climbs
Vaughters called 2008 the only race he's ever seen with proper testing. Then Patrice Clerc was fired because how dare he subject the riders to proper tests?
Tons of positives, and slooooow times up the climbs.
2006
1. Landis 38:36
2. Klöden 38:36
3. Sastre 39:01
2008
1. Sastre 39:32
2. Samuel Sánchez 41:35
3. Andy Schleck 41:35
Yep, he was half a minute slower and won the stage by 2 minutes
Exactly, Sastre is two minutes quicker than any rider since the bio passport was introduced. If Froome races hard, and is in the same ballpark, then Sastre becomes much more suspicious/Froome becomes much less.
Also Alpe du Huez has the most standardised timing of any climb, and with the steep stuff at the bottom, it is most likely to be raced from the start. It's by far the most useful climb this year to measure how quick Froome actually is.
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| the_hoyle |
Posted on 18-07-2013 09:56
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Grand Tour Champion
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So Sky have released Bio Passport information for Froome... Surprising it is from the 2011 Vuelta to present day! Wasn't it at the 2011 Vuelta when the 'new' Froome appeared?
.: Manager of :.
.: My Awards :.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-07-2013 09:58
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Yep, only from 2011 Vuelta to present. It 'conveniently' has no data on the previous 3 and a half years of his career.
Sigh.
EDIT: Wait, I just read what you wrote. It's not bio passport, it's just power data, which is meaningless if it's only from after his incredible transformation. Also, it's not public, it's only released to L'Équipe.
Sky claim the data doesn't have his VO2Max because they've never bothered to measure it. Yet again they show that 'attention to detail', 'marginal gains', etc etc is all bullshit, they haven't even measured a basic parameter of the athlete's performance.
Edited by issoisso on 18-07-2013 10:07
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| CountArach |
Posted on 18-07-2013 11:04
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Apparently Grappe is the one looking at the data for L'Equipe and I'm willing to take his word here.
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| kumazan |
Posted on 18-07-2013 11:14
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issoisso wrote:
Sky claim the data doesn't have his VO2Max because they've never bothered to measure it. Yet again they show that 'attention to detail', 'marginal gains', etc etc is all bullshit, they haven't even measured a basic parameter of the athlete's performance.
Vaughters disagrees.
CountArach wrote:
Apparently Grappe is the one looking at the data for L'Equipe and I'm willing to take his word here.
I hope you're willing to take his word on Armstrong as well.
https://fr.rec.spo...-armstrong
I love this bit (on Lance):
Un extra-terrestre? Certainement pas. Un obsessionnel du travail et du détail, oui certainement.
Sounds familiar.
Edited by kumazan on 18-07-2013 11:16
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| the_hoyle |
Posted on 18-07-2013 11:16
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Grand Tour Champion
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issoisso wrote:
Wait, I just read what you wrote. It's not bio passport, it's just power data, which is meaningless if it's only from after his incredible transformation. Also, it's not public, it's only released to L'Équipe.
ah... I thought it was the bio passport. Misread the article! my french isn't what it used to be
.: Manager of :.
.: My Awards :.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 06:07
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| Dizzle |
Posted on 18-07-2013 11:20
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Shame it's only the data from Vuelta 11 and onwards, would be more interesting to see his data from before.
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| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 18-07-2013 11:21
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Dizzle wrote:
Shame it's only the data from Vuelta 11 and onwards, would be more interesting to see his data from before.
Yeah, I wonder why...
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-07-2013 12:00
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kumazan wrote:
issoisso wrote:
Sky claim the data doesn't have his VO2Max because they've never bothered to measure it. Yet again they show that 'attention to detail', 'marginal gains', etc etc is all bullshit, they haven't even measured a basic parameter of the athlete's performance.
Vaughters disagrees.
No he doesn't 
You're misunderstanding the word 'basic'. Vaughters uses a more advanced test of ability. VO2max is, like I said, a basic parameter
Vaughters tests VO2max as well. But only as one of many tests after the rider is on the team. He just doesn't use it as the be-all, end-all of performance to sign rider.
It's another parameter along with many others that's tested afterwards.
Edited by issoisso on 18-07-2013 12:01
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kumazan |
Posted on 18-07-2013 12:02
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Team Leader
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issoisso wrote:
kumazan wrote:
issoisso wrote:
Sky claim the data doesn't have his VO2Max because they've never bothered to measure it. Yet again they show that 'attention to detail', 'marginal gains', etc etc is all bullshit, they haven't even measured a basic parameter of the athlete's performance.
Vaughters disagrees.
No he doesn't
You're misunderstanding the word 'basic'. Vaughters uses a more advanced test of ability. VO2max is, like I said, a basic parameter
Vaughters tests VO2max as well. But only as one of many tests after the rider is on the team. He just doesn't use it as the be-all, end-all of performance to sign rider.
It's another parameter along with many others that's tested afterwards.
That's not what he says here:
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| CountArach |
Posted on 18-07-2013 13:13
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8290
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kumazan wrote:
CountArach wrote:
Apparently Grappe is the one looking at the data for L'Equipe and I'm willing to take his word here.
I hope you're willing to take his word on Armstrong as well.
https://fr.rec.spo...-armstrong
I love this bit (on Lance):
Un extra-terrestre? Certainement pas. Un obsessionnel du travail et du détail, oui certainement.
Sounds familiar.
Yeah the more I've read since I posted that the less I trust him. Sigh... when we can't trust the journalists either then what hope is there?
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| BritPCMFan |
Posted on 18-07-2013 13:42
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He just goes on what he sees. All his saying is that what he sees is steady, consistent and that it is not totally in the real of fiction. He says it right on the limit of whats doable, but that isn't itself proof on any wrong doing.
Basically, he is saying I am not going to find someone guilty in the lack of conclusive evidence. Which is what any good scientist will do. If there was proof, he would say so, as there isn't he is not prepared to smear someone. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 18-07-2013 13:49
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
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kumazan wrote:
issoisso wrote:
kumazan wrote:
issoisso wrote:
Sky claim the data doesn't have his VO2Max because they've never bothered to measure it. Yet again they show that 'attention to detail', 'marginal gains', etc etc is all bullshit, they haven't even measured a basic parameter of the athlete's performance.
Vaughters disagrees.
No he doesn't
You're misunderstanding the word 'basic'. Vaughters uses a more advanced test of ability. VO2max is, like I said, a basic parameter
Vaughters tests VO2max as well. But only as one of many tests after the rider is on the team. He just doesn't use it as the be-all, end-all of performance to sign rider.
It's another parameter along with many others that's tested afterwards.
That's not what he says here:
Thanks. That's not what he said last year, so I can only assume his methods have changed
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 18-07-2013 13:58
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So, Froome's been pretty dominant this year, but the riders he is beating all seem to be either:
a) Past their peak
b) notyet at their peak
or c) not a top rider.
So I started thinking whether Froome is being made to look better because his competition just isn't up to the mark. looking at ages I figure that riders are at their peak between 26 and 29, so anyone born between 1986 and 1983. Now look at the cqranking page: https://www.cqrank...gRider.asp
4 of the top 5 this year were born in 84 or 85 which supports this argument, 44 out of the top 100 were also born between 1983 and 1986.
If we go back 4 years, to 2009, then the peak age for riders should be 1982 to 1979 and we have three of the top five in this age bracket, so this has some validity. If we go back further riders get older, however I feel that this is because doping meant old riders hung around longer.
But now lets look at GC riders born in 1986-1983, these are Froome's competition:
| CQ Ranking | Change | Nationality | Name | Team | Age | Points | | 1 | -11 | | FROOME Chris | SKY | 20/05/1985 | 1969 | | 3 | -7 | | NIBALI Vincenzo | AST | 14/11/1984 | 1669 | | 5 | -66 | | PORTE Richie | SKY | 30/01/1985 | 1321 | | 10 | -12 | | COSTA Rui Alberto Faria | MOV | 05/10/1986 | 977 | | 14 | -45 | | MARTIN Daniel | GRS | 20/08/1986 | 868 | | 16 | -155 | | SPILAK Simon | KAT | 23/06/1986 | 860 | | 17 | -56 | | MOLLEMA Bauke | BLA | 26/11/1986 | 851 | | 20 | -180 | | SANTAMBROGIO Mauro | VIN | 07/10/1984 | 810 | | 32 | -48 | | KREUZIGER Roman | TST | 06/05/1986 | 604 | | 50 | -141 | | MORENO BAZAN Javier | MOV | 18/07/1984 | 453 | | 54 | -149 | | INTXAUSTI ELORRIAGA Beñat | MOV | 20/03/1986 | 443 | | 55 | -212 | | FRANK Mathias | BMC | 09/12/1986 | 433 | | 60 | -61 | | FUGLSANG Jakob | AST | 22/03/1985 | 414 | | 70 | -214 | | BOUET Maxime | ALM | 03/11/1986 | 372 | | 72 | -112 | | BAKELANTS Jan | RLT | 14/02/1986 | 355 | | 76 | -44 | | VAN DEN BROECK Jurgen | LTB | 01/02/1983 | 341 | | 83 | -556 | | SEELDRAEYERS Kevin | AST | 12/09/1986 | 323 | | 85 | -91 | | MACHADO Tiago Jose Pinto | RLT | 18/10/1985 | 318 | | 86 | -205 | | NAVARRO GARCIA Daniel | COF | 08/07/1983 | 317 | | 89 | -128 | | ANTON HERNANDEZ Igor | EUS | 02/03/1983 | 308 | | 97 | -86 | | ROLLAND Pierre | EUC | 10/10/1986 | 297 | | 98 | -379 | | GAUDIN Damien | EUC | 20/08/1986 | 296 |
That's the best cycling has to offer, and bar the top two none have ever threated to win a GT. So what happened, where are the great riders of this generation? I guess if you look down the list you can spot Anton hovering at the bottom, crashes have really ruined his hopes. Then there are Schleck and Gesink, again crashes, and for Schleck other things, means they will never reach the heights the promised.
This is why Froome is dominant. Not because of some secret doping or training. It's because his rivals have all crashed out of top level cycling.
Edited by mb2612 on 18-07-2013 13:58
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 18-07-2013 14:02
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Arguably the two biggest gc talents of that generation haven't improved since 2005: Lovkvist and Dekker
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 18-07-2013 14:04
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Spilak23 wrote:
Arguably the two biggest gc talents of that generation haven't improved since 2005: Lovkvist and Dekker
Hah, I totally forgot them as well.
Supports my point though
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| Andreas93 |
Posted on 18-07-2013 14:10
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mb2612 wrote:
So, Froome's been pretty dominant this year, but the riders he is beating all seem to be either:
a) Past their peak
b) notyet at their peak
or c) not a top rider.
So I started thinking whether Froome is being made to look better because his competition just isn't up to the mark. looking at ages I figure that riders are at their peak between 26 and 29, so anyone born between 1986 and 1983. Now look at the cqranking page: https://www.cqrank...gRider.asp
4 of the top 5 this year were born in 84 or 85 which supports this argument, 44 out of the top 100 were also born between 1983 and 1986.
If we go back 4 years, to 2009, then the peak age for riders should be 1982 to 1979 and we have three of the top five in this age bracket, so this has some validity. If we go back further riders get older, however I feel that this is because doping meant old riders hung around longer.
But now lets look at GC riders born in 1986-1983, these are Froome's competition:
| CQ Ranking | Change | Nationality | Name | Team | Age | Points | | 1 | -11 | | FROOME Chris | SKY | 20/05/1985 | 1969 | | 3 | -7 | | NIBALI Vincenzo | AST | 14/11/1984 | 1669 | | 5 | -66 | | PORTE Richie | SKY | 30/01/1985 | 1321 | | 10 | -12 | | COSTA Rui Alberto Faria | MOV | 05/10/1986 | 977 | | 14 | -45 | | MARTIN Daniel | GRS | 20/08/1986 | 868 | | 16 | -155 | | SPILAK Simon | KAT | 23/06/1986 | 860 | | 17 | -56 | | MOLLEMA Bauke | BLA | 26/11/1986 | 851 | | 20 | -180 | | SANTAMBROGIO Mauro | VIN | 07/10/1984 | 810 | | 32 | -48 | | KREUZIGER Roman | TST | 06/05/1986 | 604 | | 50 | -141 | | MORENO BAZAN Javier | MOV | 18/07/1984 | 453 | | 54 | -149 | | INTXAUSTI ELORRIAGA Beñat | MOV | 20/03/1986 | 443 | | 55 | -212 | | FRANK Mathias | BMC | 09/12/1986 | 433 | | 60 | -61 | | FUGLSANG Jakob | AST | 22/03/1985 | 414 | | 70 | -214 | | BOUET Maxime | ALM | 03/11/1986 | 372 | | 72 | -112 | | BAKELANTS Jan | RLT | 14/02/1986 | 355 | | 76 | -44 | | VAN DEN BROECK Jurgen | LTB | 01/02/1983 | 341 | | 83 | -556 | | SEELDRAEYERS Kevin | AST | 12/09/1986 | 323 | | 85 | -91 | | MACHADO Tiago Jose Pinto | RLT | 18/10/1985 | 318 | | 86 | -205 | | NAVARRO GARCIA Daniel | COF | 08/07/1983 | 317 | | 89 | -128 | | ANTON HERNANDEZ Igor | EUS | 02/03/1983 | 308 | | 97 | -86 | | ROLLAND Pierre | EUC | 10/10/1986 | 297 | | 98 | -379 | | GAUDIN Damien | EUC | 20/08/1986 | 296 |
That's the best cycling has to offer, and bar the top two none have ever threated to win a GT. So what happened, where are the great riders of this generation? I guess if you look down the list you can spot Anton hovering at the bottom, crashes have really ruined his hopes. Then there are Schleck and Gesink, again crashes, and for Schleck other things, means they will never reach the heights the promised.
This is why Froome is dominant. Not because of some secret doping or training. It's because his rivals have all crashed out of top level cycling.
When looking at the results before Vuelta 2011, it is pretty unheard of that Froome crushes the likes of Mollema and Martin.
Edited by Andreas93 on 18-07-2013 14:11
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