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Ideas for 2012
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-02-2011 15:00
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Also, the big stage racers are unlikely to be loaned out for a GT from CT to PT. For example I wouldn't see Kami letting Ricco riding the Giro an waste 21 of his already few race days even for an enormous amount of money.
This one, though, I totally agree on. We would see it only on hilly/cobbled riders. Perhaps a sprinter and a TT'er from time to time. The GC riders would probably be no-go...
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 15:16
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Yes, having a rider like Vanspeybrouck for the cobbles would have helped him a lot. But having him for 5 races (with 2-3 he wouldn't have been able to get 400 points  ) would have cost me some serious money (even if I wouldn't have pay the 'max' prize because of a friendship).
And without those money I wouldn't have been able to train either Gesink or Posthuma or both of them, which would have kept me away from winning my main goal of the season or be a few positions lower in the hilly classics.
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| OlegTinkov |
Posted on 07-02-2011 15:42
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full-season loans YES
short loans NO
I say yes to full-season loans cus they are usally well thought of
I say no to short loans, cus it is basicly cheating/making up for a bad tranferseason.
Also not fair since anothers team now somewhat can quess what riders in what races they are up againsts. With short term loans this won't be the case anymore, and short term will mostly benefit managers who didn't prepare their team @ the beginning of the season... So screw them 
Edited by OlegTinkov on 26-11-2014 22:23
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| Crommy |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:07
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Short term loans, as far as I know, don't happen in real cycling.
Definite no from me.
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:12
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Yes, having a rider like Vanspeybrouck for the cobbles would have helped him a lot. But having him for 5 races (with 2-3 he wouldn't have been able to get 400 points ) would have cost me some serious money (even if I wouldn't have pay the 'max' prize because of a friendship).
How come? Vanspeybrouck is worth nothing besides cobbled races, and I believe he had plenty of racedays to spare even if he rode all cobbled races in the CT  - So would be a good way to give your friend a helping hand, perhaps he could send a rider the other way for a race where you needed a hand?
On the big screen, it seems Crommy and OlegTinkov agree with the result of short term loans though, which is nice to see.
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| Roman |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:12
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I am totally against short term loans as well. I don't like this idea.
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| beagle |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:20
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With short term loans this won't be the case anymore, and short term will mostly benefit managers who didn't prepare their team @ the beginning of the season...
I suppose short term loan deals would have been finalized during transfer period
Personally, I like this idea, but it must be well balanced
Manager of Polar in Man-Game
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:21
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How come? Vanspeybrouck is worth nothing besides cobbled races, and I believe he had plenty of racedays to spare even if he rode all cobbled races in the CT - So would be a good way to give your friend a helping hand, perhaps he could send a rider the other way for a race where you needed a hand?
I made a typo there (slept only 3 hours last night). It was supposed to be "helped me a lot". And with the returning a rider thing, it couldn't happen only between 'friends'. If someone helped you, I don't see why you shouldn't return the favor even if it's not your friend.
In the end, I'm not totally pro the short loan of maxed riders, but they definitely should be available for non maxed out riders.
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| dave92 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:27
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I'd have to say i'm the short-term loaning of maxed out riders aswell as it is unrealistic and to a degree could undermine the strategy of trying to balance the season schedule and your team's strengths.
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:29
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I would say no to both maxed out, and not maxed out. I think it will mean too much tweaking on RL situations...
I can see the topic for me [Short term]Pieter Vanspeybrouck
"Who want's to loan him for Paris-Roubaix and Gent-Wevelgem? Bids starting at 400.000"
You can just as well offer 400.000 to Sony for letting Ballan stay home.
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:31
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I'd have to say i'm the short-term loaning of maxed out riders aswell as it is unrealistic and to a degree could undermine the strategy of trying to balance the season schedule and your team's strengths.
Touché... See what a strong mothertongue can do :-) That was pretty much my point exactly. But also for non-maxed-out riders though
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 19:30
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:39
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Any chance you could use the quote tags SotD, so its clear which bit you say, and which bit someone else has said
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| dave92 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:42
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I dont have too strong an opinion on non maxed riders but see it differently as they are far less of them that can get significant point hauls. Perhaps absorbing a pro-rated salary for the loaned rider would alleviate this concern? It is not the straight cash grab from the CT as they are mostly seeking a way to grow their riders.
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-02-2011 16:58
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Any chance you could use the quote tags SotD, so its clear which bit you say, and which bit someone else has said
If I had one in this topic I would be happy to, but I don't.
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 17:02
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Use the button before the colors one. Then copy paste the text you want to respond to between the tags
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| SotD |
Posted on 07-02-2011 17:09
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Use the button before the colors one. Then copy paste the text you want to respond to between the tags
Ahh brilliant. Me likes 
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 19:03
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To summarize the msn conversation myself and SN had, in which we discussed the potential of a short term loan, these were the key points:
- Non maxed riders only.
- The short term loan cost the rider the race days out of their allotted amount.
- A restriction on amount of days allowed to race, somewhere around 25 (ie; one grand tour and 2 classics, or three stage races).
- A maximum of 3 races can be appeared in (be that 3 stage races, 3 classics, or somewhere in between).
- Can only be loaned to one team.
- Still comes under the rule of "no more than 2 transfers, loans, etc in a season"
To give examples of the available riders for next season who could be included in this short term loaning (and for whom it would be worthwhile) this is a list:
Rein Taaramae - Should he remain in the CT, it would be worthwhile for the team buying him to loan him out, short term, to try and max him. However, with a level of 4.92, it would require 8 days of racing. Could who ever owned him, afford to lose 8 days off his allotted amount? That's nearly one quarter of his likely allottment.
Jacob Fiedler - Should he find himself demoted back to the CT or sold down there, surely it would make more sense to keep a TTist of that calabre racing purely in the CT to make the most of the TTs that occur the most in stage races. Either way, he'd need 12 days of racing, as most stage races in the PT are less than that, that's going to be 2 stage races, or a stage race and classics, regardless, it's a lot of race days off his amount.
Romain Sicard - Perhaps one of the riders who we'd all like to see maxed (a potential Tour candidate!). However, it'd take his full 3 races, and 25 days to make any impact, and even then it'd only push Sicard (at best) to 3.75. Not even worth it. He'd have to be loaned out for the season to make his progression worth it.
Rafael Valls - Should Santander find themselves in the particularly sticky situation of not getting promoted, Valls would benefit well from short term loans. A grand tour and 2 classics combination would see him maxed. A useful helper surely, but, as SotD mentioned, no one would willingly take on a helper without something being reciprocated - be that monetry, sexual or another kind of favour.
Dan Craven - although his progression would be worthwhile for his team, the loss of the total max (25 days) of his allotted amount isn't worth it. He wouldn't max anyway.
Aleksandr Flugel - A rider I suspect would end up being a CT leader, or in the PT next season. He could benefit from the short term loan. Currently on 4.84, he could be maxed using a short term loan. At what cost to his team though? Surely as a team leader the team in question wouldn't want to waste his race days.
The best cobble rider who is available/compatable for short term loans in Roger Kluge. With 75 cobbles. Not really a race winner in the PT. Nor is it even worth loaning him for the experience. At 4.13, 3 classics don't make much indent on getting him up to Pro Tour standard. Not to mention of course that with his sprint stat (75) and flat stat (76) and average (75), his race days, and potential to score points in the CT will be severly hindered by loaning out on short term.
The idea for the Short Term Loan was more an idea to enable teams who are particularly short on riders to put a full team on the books for the three early season stage races. That was my original thought. It lets the CT teams try to help aid their riders to progress, and also allows PT teams to buy a rider near level 2 (1.80 say) and loan him down for a few races to get him to level 2 to mean keeping him in the PT is worthwhile, rather than losing him all season long. For me, buying a rider means I'd quite like to keep the rider, having to then loan him out for an entire season before I get to use him is somewhat inconveniant. That's not to say I won't, and haven't before though.
Hope that has opened peoples eyes a little to what the point of it would be, and who would be available for such a loan. There really aren't that many riders out there for whom a short term loan is worthwhile (most of them is Ikea's due to his crap rider planning by not maxing them this season). |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 19:08
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I am fairly indifferent on the loan thing, but think it's harsh to say Ikea had bad planning, given how successfully they have done this season.
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 07-02-2011 19:12
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Considering they had a wildcard for the Tour, amongst other wildcards, they could have maxed Taaramae. He didn't. Thinking that you'd get promoted, surely anyone would have maxed Taaramae. |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 07-02-2011 19:24
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The pack was crowded with riders capable of winning most other races in the season, and even so Cunego and Valverde wasn't there, just to mention a couple. We don't need 25 super GC riders imo, we certainly don't need 40.
Slow response to this particular point by me, but I think that we do need quite a lot of top GC riders. With the nature of the game, we need options for promoting teams to go for a possible race winner - what would lead to inflation is if we have too few - and that would also lead to less changeable rankings, because if you have a top rider, youre hardly inclined to get rid of that top rider.
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