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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 07-07-2018 11:56
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Team Leader
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Bouhanni should be more like 77, needs the right stats to lead out Laporte properly.
"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-07-2018 15:01
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
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Clearly you guys didn't see the previous posts. ALL SPRINT STATS it was decided would be left until the sprint stages of the Tour so there will be a better perspective..
So unless there is a stats update after the Tour for the Lite the actual sprint stats will be revealed in the main EP release.
In the case of Bouhanni it was felt before decreasing him would be better to see how Laporte does as its interesting to compare sprinters within the same team like with Gaviria and Viviani etc
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 07-07-2018 16:57
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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emre99 wrote:
Woah bouhanni with 79 it is a disgrace, Vivani should be same with Bennett.
Reading that Bennett should be same with Viviani is a disgrace. Holy, how can you compare them. Viviani also won 4/6 face-to-face at Giro.
At Imola he was sick.
By the way yes, original DB overrates Viviani, but PCMDailyDb underrates him.
Edited by marcoplv95 on 07-07-2018 18:45
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-07-2018 18:38
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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marcoplv95 wrote:
emre99 wrote:
Woah bouhanni with 79 it is a disgrace, Vivani should be same with Bennett.
Reading that Bennett should be same with Viviani is a disgrace. Holy, how can you compare them. Viviani also won 4/6 face-to-face at Giro.
At Imola he was sick.
By the way yes, original DB overrates Viviani, but PCMDailyDC underrates him.
The compromise is somewhere in between. Viviani will either be a 80 (which most people want) or 79 (the realists want) Viviani and Bennett despite being the same only have Bennett really better on hill as the rest of Viviani's stats are going to be better and also and most importantly has more points acc and also a better team.
The idea is also to try and have 1 point difference between Gaviria and Viviani (based purely on the fact that I think Gaviria is better) and so if Gaviria is worth 81 then Viviani has a stronger claim for 80
Out of interest and will help with statting, who do people think is better between Viviani and Ewan? I ask the question as both have similar stat profiles natural sprinter with high acc and both currently on 79 sprint?
Edited by Tafiolmo on 07-07-2018 18:43
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| emre99 |
Posted on 07-07-2018 20:31
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3332
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marcoplv95 wrote:
emre99 wrote:
Woah bouhanni with 79 it is a disgrace, Vivani should be same with Bennett.
Reading that Bennett should be same with Viviani is a disgrace. Holy, how can you compare them. Viviani also won 4/6 face-to-face at Giro.
At Imola he was sick.
By the way yes, original DB overrates Viviani, but PCMDailyDb underrates him.
Yes it is a 4-2 win for Viviani in sprints, But look at the way Quickstep organizes sprint trains and so on, look at gaviria comfortably winning his first tour stage against the best! Well, my opinion is that Viviani should be 80-80 while Bennett should be 79-80.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 07-07-2018 20:56
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
emre99 wrote:
Woah bouhanni with 79 it is a disgrace, Vivani should be same with Bennett.
Reading that Bennett should be same with Viviani is a disgrace. Holy, how can you compare them. Viviani also won 4/6 face-to-face at Giro.
At Imola he was sick.
By the way yes, original DB overrates Viviani, but PCMDailyDC underrates him.
The compromise is somewhere in between. Viviani will either be a 80 (which most people want) or 79 (the realists want) Viviani and Bennett despite being the same only have Bennett really better on hill as the rest of Viviani's stats are going to be better and also and most importantly has more points acc and also a better team.
The idea is also to try and have 1 point difference between Gaviria and Viviani (based purely on the fact that I think Gaviria is better) and so if Gaviria is worth 81 then Viviani has a stronger claim for 80
Out of interest and will help with statting, who do people think is better between Viviani and Ewan? I ask the question as both have similar stat profiles natural sprinter with high acc and both currently on 79 sprint?
I totally agree Gaviria is better than Viviani atm, meanwhile I think Ewan is still behind Viviani, but could probably become better in next years. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-07-2018 21:00
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Sprinter
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marcoplv95 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
emre99 wrote:
Woah bouhanni with 79 it is a disgrace, Vivani should be same with Bennett.
Reading that Bennett should be same with Viviani is a disgrace. Holy, how can you compare them. Viviani also won 4/6 face-to-face at Giro.
At Imola he was sick.
By the way yes, original DB overrates Viviani, but PCMDailyDC underrates him.
The compromise is somewhere in between. Viviani will either be a 80 (which most people want) or 79 (the realists want) Viviani and Bennett despite being the same only have Bennett really better on hill as the rest of Viviani's stats are going to be better and also and most importantly has more points acc and also a better team.
The idea is also to try and have 1 point difference between Gaviria and Viviani (based purely on the fact that I think Gaviria is better) and so if Gaviria is worth 81 then Viviani has a stronger claim for 80
Out of interest and will help with statting, who do people think is better between Viviani and Ewan? I ask the question as both have similar stat profiles natural sprinter with high acc and both currently on 79 sprint?
I totally agree Gaviria is better than Viviani atm, meanwhile I think Ewan is still behind Viviani, but could probably become better in next years.
So without thinking of acc we could have Gaviria 81, Viviani 80 and Bennett 79 which is something I was already thinking of.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 07-07-2018 21:06
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
emre99 wrote:
Woah bouhanni with 79 it is a disgrace, Vivani should be same with Bennett.
Reading that Bennett should be same with Viviani is a disgrace. Holy, how can you compare them. Viviani also won 4/6 face-to-face at Giro.
At Imola he was sick.
By the way yes, original DB overrates Viviani, but PCMDailyDC underrates him.
The compromise is somewhere in between. Viviani will either be a 80 (which most people want) or 79 (the realists want) Viviani and Bennett despite being the same only have Bennett really better on hill as the rest of Viviani's stats are going to be better and also and most importantly has more points acc and also a better team.
The idea is also to try and have 1 point difference between Gaviria and Viviani (based purely on the fact that I think Gaviria is better) and so if Gaviria is worth 81 then Viviani has a stronger claim for 80
Out of interest and will help with statting, who do people think is better between Viviani and Ewan? I ask the question as both have similar stat profiles natural sprinter with high acc and both currently on 79 sprint?
I totally agree Gaviria is better than Viviani atm, meanwhile I think Ewan is still behind Viviani, but could probably become better in next years.
So without thinking of acc we could have Gaviria 81, Viviani 80 and Bennett 79 which is something I was already thinking of.
That's what i think  |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 07-07-2018 21:43
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World Champion
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I think that's generous for both Viviani and Bennett. The sprinter field in the Giro was very poor and both mass benefitted from that. Just look at the other sprinters in the race, they had no competition.
For Viviani, all his sprint stage wins before the Giro were from small prep races, which I don't think should count for much. He won classics in the sprint, but that's more of a backup stat thing then pure SPR.
As for Bennett, there's no win before the Giro this year. Two podiums in Catalunya, one behind Hodeg and one 3rd after a sprint where no other sprinters were involved (next up were Mohoric, Ferrari, Sanz and Bernal). Not impressive at all.
Bennett's main strenght is in hillier profiles and for Viviani it's his backup stats. But if you give Gaviria 81, I would give Viviani 79 and Bennett 78 at most.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 07-07-2018 21:53
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Grand Tour Specialist
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Ollfardh wrote:
I think that's generous for both Viviani and Bennett. The sprinter field in the Giro was very poor and both mass benefitted from that. Just look at the other sprinters in the race, they had no competition.
For Viviani, all his sprint stage wins before the Giro were from small prep races, which I don't think should count for much. He won classics in the sprint, but that's more of a backup stat thing then pure SPR.
As for Bennett, there's no win before the Giro this year. Two podiums in Catalunya, one behind Hodeg and one 3rd after a sprint where no other sprinters were involved (next up were Mohoric, Ferrari, Sanz and Bernal). Not impressive at all.
Bennett's main strenght is in hillier profiles and for Viviani it's his backup stats. But if you give Gaviria 81, I would give Viviani 79 and Bennett 78 at most.
I agree with that.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 07-07-2018 22:39
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
I think that's generous for both Viviani and Bennett. The sprinter field in the Giro was very poor and both mass benefitted from that. Just look at the other sprinters in the race, they had no competition.
For Viviani, all his sprint stage wins before the Giro were from small prep races, which I don't think should count for much. He won classics in the sprint, but that's more of a backup stat thing then pure SPR.
As for Bennett, there's no win before the Giro this year. Two podiums in Catalunya, one behind Hodeg and one 3rd after a sprint where no other sprinters were involved (next up were Mohoric, Ferrari, Sanz and Bernal). Not impressive at all.
Bennett's main strenght is in hillier profiles and for Viviani it's his backup stats. But if you give Gaviria 81, I would give Viviani 79 and Bennett 78 at most.
It's true that sprinter field was very poor, but they both were two steps above at least (8 of 8 group sprints had both Bennett or Viviani with the other in 2nd place, or 3rd few times).
Imho that means that Bennett is 2 stats above the others competing, and Viviani being better than Bennet, 3. If you look at best competitors there was Mareczko (78), Modolo Bonifazio Guardini (77)...so let's downgrade everyone and it would be ok?
About Viviani's season I think this year GW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmmXL...mmXLM97ERI) said he's better sprinter than Sagan and Demare, and you should consider that there are back-up stats that will most likely benefit both.
In Paris-Nice stage 2 he has beaten Greipel 81, Demare Kristoff 80, Bouhanni 79.
In Abu Dhabi stage 2 Ewan 79, Kristoff, Greipel.
In Dubai Kittel 82, Groenewegen 80, Cavendish 81, Kristoff, Bouhanni.
In STDU Sagan 80, Ewan.
Ofc sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses, that's why i'm not saying he's better but definitely not worse in my opinion |
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| clamel |
Posted on 08-07-2018 11:08
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Protected Rider
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How about the new young danish sprinter Niklas Larsen. You just got to up his stats. Finsihed 2nd in Danish RR behind Mörköv and has beaten Baugnies early that has some 70-69 ac-spr. Did some nice sprints top 10 in Tour of Norway too.Larsen is down at funny 64-62.
The whole Virtu team was setup to make him sprint early on in Danish RR. So at least on top of that Cont team.
2nd in Dane U23 Road Race too. Lots of great results in this year. Not really only a sprinter, but someone up and coming.
Then maybe Mikkel Honore needs a small boost too. Circuit Wallone was his, beating Larsen.
The younger Julius Johansen got 61-61 which is almost stupid. He is good enough to beat Larsen in the U23 race. Perhaps a little boost.
These Danes are really on the coming, not only in WT but many younger riders for sure.
Well Niklas Larsen is the most important to get a boost, the others are under value but future will tell.
IMHO always important to look at "the lesser known" guys not argue 1 pts up or down among the superstars. Playing in career those young lesser known are the future in that type of game.
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| clamel |
Posted on 08-07-2018 11:29
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Talking a lot about sprinters I toss my hat into that.
I have been thinking playing the pcm17 that now you can see the added plus and minus on how a cyclist are for the day on his stats. You really got a big difference beside the "normal 0. Up to +5 on sprints and acc one day will swing everything.
So basically these discusions based on real life tossing points 1 up or down could be crushed when you do play the game. You know what "your" sprinter have but never all the others. So even the outcome of a Champ 'dEllyses sprint has to be done many many times with perhaps fixed startlist just to get a general idea if this or that stat is correct.
One factor brought up has been the AI problem in setting up trains. You normally don't see in-game several trains form (at least I haven't) so previosuly said the flat/sprint might be important just to get this or that train to work as IRL.
It's a delicate balance but you could get strange results either way.
I tested out Giro 2017 startlist while converting Leon40 Giro creations. Stunned watching Tom Dum getting very involved in many sprints that wasn't the full peloton. 50-60 guys in a sprint and he even beat Modolo. Would that be true, when it wasn't even an uphill ?
In my "fixed" DB I had to lower his sprint stat for sure. After placing himself top in many stages that had the big sprinters winning I just couldn't bare it.
My general thought was how different a big bunch sprint is from a smaller group of perhaps 15-20 riders. This factor we don't have any stats for what I understand. Generally I thought perhaps ALL top GC riders should have lower sprints so they don't get involved with big peloton sprints.
Kwiatkowski might be an example of this. He is very fast in smaller groups but couldn't match a true peloton sprint with all the big cannons.
Delicate work to make this right I understand, but just a thought
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“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 08-07-2018 11:51
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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As I said above there are the realists and what other people people want and both would work in the grand scheme of things in regards to the sprinters. Of all the posts I most agree with Olifardh overall and made a number of those points about Viviani. and yes it needs to be said the Giro sprint field was extremely weak.
Personally I would actually keep Viviani 79 and Bennett 78-79 and Gaviria 80-81 based on what I've seen so far. Also the examples that Marco has posted in regards to Viviani's victories need to take into consideration that a number of those riders that he has beaten like Kittel Greipel and Cav are clearly facing downgrades unless they do something in the Tour.
Or use the other option which has Viviani on 80 etc
Will look at Clamel's post a bit later a lot to read as have to go out now.
Also what I am going to do to generate more interest in this difficult subject is post the top sprinter stats as I see them after each sprint stage of the Tour taking all into consideration. So will post something later today on that
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| atlanta |
Posted on 08-07-2018 12:39
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1220
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Guys i am going to add this beast in my game what stats shall i start him with thank you. Remco Evenepoel |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 08-07-2018 21:11
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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clamel wrote:
Talking a lot about sprinters I toss my hat into that.
I have been thinking playing the pcm17 that now you can see the added plus and minus on how a cyclist are for the day on his stats. You really got a big difference beside the "normal 0. Up to +5 on sprints and acc one day will swing everything.
So basically these discusions based on real life tossing points 1 up or down could be crushed when you do play the game. You know what "your" sprinter have but never all the others. So even the outcome of a Champ 'dEllyses sprint has to be done many many times with perhaps fixed startlist just to get a general idea if this or that stat is correct.
One factor brought up has been the AI problem in setting up trains. You normally don't see in-game several trains form (at least I haven't) so previosuly said the flat/sprint might be important just to get this or that train to work as IRL.
It's a delicate balance but you could get strange results either way.
I tested out Giro 2017 startlist while converting Leon40 Giro creations. Stunned watching Tom Dum getting very involved in many sprints that wasn't the full peloton. 50-60 guys in a sprint and he even beat Modolo. Would that be true, when it wasn't even an uphill ?
In my "fixed" DB I had to lower his sprint stat for sure. After placing himself top in many stages that had the big sprinters winning I just couldn't bare it.
My general thought was how different a big bunch sprint is from a smaller group of perhaps 15-20 riders. This factor we don't have any stats for what I understand. Generally I thought perhaps ALL top GC riders should have lower sprints so they don't get involved with big peloton sprints.
Kwiatkowski might be an example of this. He is very fast in smaller groups but couldn't match a true peloton sprint with all the big cannons.
Delicate work to make this right I understand, but just a thought
Well the difference in stats by a point here and there does make a difference especially when you consider that daily form is influenced by a rider's 1. Favourite Races and 2. Temperature/climate. By having favourite races in a rider's list he is more likely to be on form for a race in general which should increase the likelihood of daily form which is going to be influenced by pre-race form. Also the temperature/climate will also have another boost for a rider or even a decrease if he doesn't like the weather.
Unfortunately for the Lite DB both favourite races and temperature couldn't be included as they gave out a number of errors but will be in the main EP release.
The game Ai has a problem with GC rider's as it tries and correctly so to keep them near the front of the ploton to lessen the likelihood of crashes in the peloton and I guess these riders have little choice but to sprint and if this is indeed a problem and they could do with a sprint decrease but then this can affect them in a small group finish so I think maybe better to leave it but a difficult one
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 09-07-2018 12:55
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Team Leader
Posts: 6795
Joined: 21-07-2010
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As I follow Swedish cycling closer than most (any?) I have gone through the Swedish riders according to the first post.
Here are my recommendations, suggestions for additions will follow later.
Riders not mentioned are fine to keep as they are.
Jonas Ahlstrand: Have stopped cycling alltogether. Either massive downgrade or complete removal.
Gustav Höög: General upgrade fighter-style. Very prone to attackeing (when allowed for team tactics). Recently got a 9th place in a 1.1 race and won a 1.2 race in one of the rare occasiions h wasn't tied up by team tactics.
Even took 3rd place on a very tough NC-route. His type looks ok, but a general upgrade is needed.
Alexander Gingsjö: Generally retired but came back from retirement for the NC's. In the TT he took a wrong turn, otherwise he would have been in podium contention. A pure domestique in the NC but he did very well. Lower Fighter stat, higher TT and perhaps slightly beteter back-up stats.
Could lower potential even further as he won't become any stronger than he already is.
Tobias Ludvigsson: +1 in hill/mtn as he does well when allowed to go for himself. REC up a good bit as he always goes well in the end of GT's, especially the final TT despite having usually worked hard for his leader all race long.
Kim Magnusson: He have put in some decent efforts as heelper at EF Education. I would give him a slight upgrade in mtn, otherwise adjusting back-ups for him ti be a useful domestique at lower WT-level.
Håkan Nilsson: Remove
Michael Olsson: Focuses on MTB. If kept in the DB he should have lower hill and flat stat.
Robert Pölder: Pot 2-3
Alexander Wetterhall: Have ended his road career. If kept pot down to avoid deveopmen, but I think he could still perform according to his stats. Perhaps TT down 1-2 pts.
Johan Svensson: Remove
Lucas Eriksson: Big upgrade overall (except perhps Mtn as we haven't seen him there). By far the best finisher after a tough race in Sweden this season despite being just 22 years old. Handles cobbles well (13th in U23 Ronde and 37th in U23 G-W with next to no help).
Hill upgrade based on Scandinavian Race and GP Horsens Posten (which is much tougher than it looks on the profile as there's a constant flow of short steep hills).
Good back-ups based in excelling in races with many attacks. Generally avoids TT's so hard to stat him there, but probably his weakest area. I would even consider upping his pot to 6.
Fredrik Ludvigsson: I would add a point to hill and flat. He have put in some massive efforts as domestique on hily terrain and the teams win in the hilly Scandnavian Race is largely down to Ludvigsson putting down the hammer all day cracking the peloton and avoiding that anyone got back up.
Then he followed up by winning Skandis GP, which is classed as the toughest GP route in Europe.
Move 2 pts from Prl to TT as he gets much better on longer TT's. In the NC he was almost as fast at Tobias Ludvigsson on the last half but lost a lot of time early on.
Patrik Moren: Remove
Hampus Anderberg: Needs slightly higher cobbles-stat. Have been out with an injury almost a year though with no cure in sight. I would lower his pot 1 pt until he actually gets back on the bike.
Filip Bengtsson: Have ended his career. Pot down to 2/3
Richard Larsén: General boost. Flat and hill should probably be 70/69. He have barely raced without going in the early break all season so massive boost to fighter stat to 74+, nicknamed Mr Brakaway.
Acc needs to be higher, but keep sprint low. TT up a bit to 66/67. Slight upgrade to back-up stats but often his problem is that he haven't got the energy to keeep it going all the way internationally. REC should be kept rather low!
Philip Lindau: Retired, fine to keep with current stats.
Lars Andersson: Remove
Jacob Eriksson: Overall boost. Had power to attack on the hill in the finale of the NC's and have a long row of good results in UCI-races despite just 18 years old. Strong all-rounder but hill should be highest main stat. By people around the team he is considered a bigger talent than Lucas.
Gustav Erik Larsson: Remove, still rides MTB with some success though so could be kept with a reduction in TT.
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 09-07-2018 13:22
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Team Leader
Posts: 6795
Joined: 21-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Suggestions for riders to add in stead of the ones I suggest removed:
Hannes Bergström Frisk: Have just signed with CT-team Memil CCN as a future GC rider. Did well on the queen stage in Tour du Maroc but then crashed out. I would put mtn 68/69 until we have seen more (set to race Qinghai Lake). Hill 2-3 pts lower.
3rd in the TT-nationals, would put TT at 69/70. Decent backup stats
https://www.procy...-bergstrom
Erik Bergström Frisk: Similar to brother Hannes, though weaker due to age. Possible more equal between mtn/hill. Stronger than Hannes at that age so a bit higher pot probably. Best U23 in the ITT nationals.
https://www.procy...-bergstrom
Awet Gebremedhin Andemeskel: Refugee from Eritrea. Strong GC rider as U23 but on his way back after a couple of years off teh bike, now a Swedish National.
This year he rides for PCT team Israel Cycling Academy and have done well in the early races in Mallorca as well as in Tour of Slovenia. Will never be a strong cobbler, but did OK when riding cobbles in the spring so I's give him decent cobbles-stats for a pure climber.
I would weigh mtn/hill relatively equal based on his performance, but he sees himself as more of a pure climber that prefers long mountains.
Current level as strong PCT helper or even worthy of PT-racing on domestique level.
https://www.procy...?id=204477
Jacob Wihk: CT-level leadout man on short rutes. Very resilient but dislikes long races and hills. High stats: Flat, sprint, acc around 67/68. TT/Prl/Cbl low, pot 3
https://www.procy...ryska-wihk
Vincent Andersson: All-round ardennes type rider with current top stats 66-67 and potential 4
https://www.procy...-andersson
Andreas Andersson: Rides for CT-team T.Palm PCW. as a pure helper. All-round classics type who could develop towards both cobbles and hills. Young so mainstats around 66, pot 5. Weakest spot probably sprint, all other should be relatively equal, Hill perhaps on pt higher than cbl and mtn lower (haven't raced those)
https://www.procy...-andersson
Axel Moureau: Solid cobbles all-rounder, pot 4, weak TT. 17 years old
https://www.procy...?id=216971
Staffan Arvidsson: 2nd in the TT nationals, apart from that solid allrounder preffering hills over sprints. Would put hill and TT on 67 as main stats.
https://www.procy...?id=169138
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 09-07-2018 21:48
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Atlantius this is a superb piece of research and as most riders here are CT have mentioned it to the guys that do CT riders.
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| clamel |
Posted on 10-07-2018 22:39
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Protected Rider
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Sorry but Ahlstrand hasn't stopped all together. I saw him in the Swedish Crit Championship and he looked fine. Riding for a team but guess doesn't put so much into it. Just sad he didn't get any contract last year.
Think deleting him would be premature, but sure downgrade.
You didn't mention the Swedish Crit champion Emil Andersson. He could get into the DB I think.
Well he isn't that young so he might not be.
Just mentioning two US riders that popped up in their championship
Gage Hecht and Thomas Revard. Have some decent results this year and even last year. Just on that side of the Atlantic, but Revard got a contract with Axeon and they don't pick bad cyclists.
I saw Hecht with very low TT and he was 5th ITT in Knoxville.
revard have a couple of nice placings in youth for Beauce (won) and Gila.
Mind you that these yanks always good in acc and sprints. Lots of Crit races so they know that stuff.
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“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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