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2015 Database v4: New OVL rating
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:32
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Faso was a race with TTT, where Oz monsters gained 30+ seconds on everybody 
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| Heine |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:34
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It depends on how this is handled when it comes to renewals/wage. I see the reasoning for lower racedays. That wont hurt the TT-riders that much (as poeple say they got a low amount anyway). And I kinda support having more allround riders (even though my team kinda lack them)
I kinda both hope and hope not that the wage-formula has been fixed to compensate. Not changing will hurt me (Monsalve, Zepuntke, Flügel, Klemme etc) but it will also hurt nearly all PT-teams and opens up a whole new challenge. Might take wages on old riders and free agents closer to eachother aswell.
This also makes riders like Pippo more valuable. Earlier he had a high avg compared to riders with fewer high stats. Now he will have a higher (comparable) amount of race days and would be a really great PCT rider
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| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:37
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Thanks very much for this SN.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:39
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Heine wrote:
This also makes riders like Pippo more valuable. Earlier he had a high avg compared to riders with fewer high stats. Now he will have a higher (comparable) amount of race days and would be a really great PCT rider
Yeah, it is great change for all arounders, for example Igantiev would have 3 more race days in PCT compared to 2014.
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:41
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The Rider wrote:
^ - I'm pretty sure Olman had multiple top 5 GC finishes for the OZ. (Faso off the top of my head)
Ford - 2014
| 1st | Duo Differdange | | 7th GC | Post Danmark Rundt |
+ 8 stage-wins in past two seasons
Olman - 2014
| 4th GC | Olympia's Tour | | 5th GC | Tour du Faso |
Olman - 2013
| 2nd | Windhoek ITT (C2) | | | 7th GC | Olympia's Tour | | | 16th | Chrono des Herbiers (PT) |
That said, both will be pretty useless except of TTTs in ProTour. You won't here me complaining though. Still, his new OVL is shocking
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 15:29
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:42
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What has happened to Bakari with all the changes  Probably the most 1D rider in the game, he's gotta be hurting.
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:42
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Like I said, the Overall formula is not final. But constructive feedback is a lot more useful than laughing/moaning at it
Obviously the Renewals process will consider the new Overall rating, and not the old Average rating.
It does seem that pure time triallists could need looking at, although they do have more race winning opportunities outside of PT. While I've separately noticed that sprinters with a good hill stat are being undervalued - e.g. Van Stayen a similar level to Zabel, but obviously much more useful and versatile. So I have an idea for giving hill stat a bigger weight in the formula for sprinters.
Traditionally all round cyclists have been hard done by by the average formula. The likes of Reimer, Ignatiev and Smukulis being higher than you might expect, for example. Contrast that to riders like Alarcon and Di Maggio who have been rated too low - their lack of back up stats did not prevent them from winning races, so should not be dragging down their Overall rating either. I think this way is fairer - but may not be perfect. For example, even though he had an awesome season last year is Andy Schleck really the best rider in the DB? Does his higher Res and Rec outweigh the TT and Hill advantage that Spilak has over him? It's petty differences at the top, but is the sort of thing that may be impacting riders further down the DB. A rider like Bibby is probably too low now as well - but finding a formula that treats a rider like him right, and a rider like Di Maggio right, is difficult.
And that's the key: consistency. The formula needs to be consistent across the DB. Making adjustments on a rider type is fine, but singling out specific riders and only raising them is a terrible idea. Don't forget that from a Renewals perspective, previous results are considered as a very notable factor anyway - which will cover that.
Edited by SportingNonsense on 24-04-2015 09:57
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-04-2015 09:56
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Garby's progress makes me very happy when I see it. 
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:03
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Like I said, the Overall formula is not final. But constructive feedback is a lot more useful than laughing/moaning at it
As this is very likely directed at me, i think that content of the message is much more important then its form (obviously many people would disagree with this). You wanted feedback, i gave you the feedback, sadly it is seen as moaning, probably because i have choosen one of my riders as example.
Everybody here on the forum know that i am not the biggest diplomat,when it come to saying something, because i have enough of seriousness and formality in actual life and i visit Daily to have fun and laugh.
I was not laughing at you,Roturn or any other person in particular, just on the fact that rider like Boom has lower average then one dimensional time trialists, who are, compared to him absolutely useless if you dont have five or six of them in your team...it is even more shocking for me after talks about how time trialist are not getting enough chances to earn points in higher levels of man-game.
As i think about it, problems of one dimensional riders come only in PCT and CT, so i am not sure that across the board solution is the right one if it should mean that those TTists wages will rise significantly.
End of moaning. 
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 24-04-2015 10:10
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| Heine |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:05
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Quick recap of my opinions.
Positives:
- One stat riders will be closer to allrounders in overall, thus in wage and race days
- Riders will go quicker up in overall as they develop, thus making a talents go quicker up in wage
- MIGHT take free agents prices and old riders prices closer to eachother.
Negatives:
- Pure TT-riders getting a too high overall which leads to their wage going up (compared to others)
- Allrounders might be overvalued, though I haven't compared directly
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:13
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@Avin That was a general comment. My last paragraph was more aimed at you, but nothing else Don't jump on the over-sensitive bandwagon so quickly
Being biased is actually one of the more helpful ways to identify issues with the formula. Each manager is more likely to notice if one of their riders now seems overrated - or if a rival rider is underrated. That may just be bias, or it may be an area that does indeed need looking at.
There hasn't been any in-depth analysis of the consequences of the new system, so I fully expected issues to be pointed out, hence encouraging feedback from the start. The current TT specialist situation is just that, not some specifically targeted for situation like you seem to think
Edited by SportingNonsense on 24-04-2015 10:14
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:18
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Henao now the best rider in the team
This definitely won't be good once renewals arrive.
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:22
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Heine wrote:
How will it be with training of added riders, is that allowed?
Most likely no. They're either new and should have at least one season at their allocated stats, or have already had their improvement for the year through updated stats.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:26
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Don't jump on the over-sensitive bandwagon so quickly
That would need some serious personality overhaul, as over-sensitivity is my second name, right after being annoying
Thanks for the answer SN and you are right that managers obviously spot their riders and its changes first. I clicked on the database, filtered Metinvest and boom (no pun intended ), Zmorka is second best rider of the team, while Grosu (hilly sprinter as you adressed) is six places back, while their scoring potential is rather the other way around, that was the big signal that average overhaul is strange to my eyes + that all arounders look overpowered now.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 24-04-2015 10:28
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:37
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Request for help: Can someone send me a version of the DB where everything is sorted by OVL? Because i can't sort as it crashes the DB. Nothing else needs changing, just sorted by OVL descending.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:41
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Here you go Manx:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wiz5a5gr8oj...d.xls?dl=0
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-04-2015 10:45
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Cheers, you grumpy old man 
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| jph27 |
Posted on 24-04-2015 11:00
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Heine wrote:
How will it be with training of added riders, is that allowed?
Most likely no. They're either new and should have at least one season at their allocated stats, or have already had their improvement for the year through updated stats.
So no 80MO Sisira? 
Looks good to me. Overall system does seem to hinder TTists a little I agree, but then I suppose that's just an unfortunate side effect. No top talents is understandable, and 3 more Sri Lankans is a nice situation for me. |
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| Scorchio |
Posted on 24-04-2015 11:01
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Just scanning through the db, and a couple of thoughts come to mind:
* As is an early release, we should all keep an eye out for errors to report - trying to compile a short list to submit. e.g. One thing I am particularly noticing thus far is a lot of riders who should have extra XP but wouldn't have gained a level seem to be missing the XP increase. I will come back with as full a list as I can see, assume it is helpful if everyone keeps an eye out and reports here.
* Has there been any consideration of how the general increase in overall stat and hence decreased race days will impact rider development - I can see in some cases will be very difficult to move e.g. through level 3 for even quite 'ordinary' riders in one season unless in PT. Perhaps this is intentional?
Overall excited to have a new db to peruse and play with and for us all to discuss  .
Manager of ISA - Hexacta in the MG |
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| gargatouf |
Posted on 24-04-2015 11:10
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Thanks for that, I will be looking into this DB in depth over the weekend. |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
