The Hobbit wrote:
Like M. Luigi said, what the community does helps make the game better, but you can't play it without the core programme. At least I think that's what he meant.
I didn't really say that (that the community helps make the game better), and didn't mean that without programmers you can't play the game (which is quite obvious) What I meant was that stuff like shirts/stages/new riders shouldn't be worries of the programmers, so saying "Cyanide can't make a PCM that works but then again they have all these other stuff like shirts and stages to do" makes little sense, since the guys who are supposed to make the game work shouldn't be linked to the shirts/stages work.
The Hobbit wrote:
I'm not saying I blame you for the game, that would be overly dumb. But I think people should get off Cyanide's back. There may not be many programmers in our community, so why is that?
It's hard
It's boring
No one has the time.
I bet that there aren't many chemical engineers in the community too. Like programmers or most jobs, it's not common to find people who do exactly that. If you take a big group of people, a few of them will work with something; another few will work with another thing; and so on. Likewise, in the community, a few people are programmers, a few people have another certain job, and so on (obviously there's a bigger chance of finding programmers or people linked to that area in a game forum than finding a cook for example, but I hope my point is clear anyway ).
If programming is hard and boring, the programmers at Cyanide shouldn't have chosen that job, or should have quit it at some point. 'Not having time' doesn't apply either, since that's their job. It's not like a work in the community that you do whenever you have time/willingness. Additionally, we pay for the game, and if version after version it has crucial problems, it's only fair that we complain to at least have these things fixed.
The Hobbit wrote:
Therefore why are you moaning for them doing badly at something you can't do better. I wouldn't criticise someon'es mandarin because I don't like it if I have no knowledge of Mandarin.
It's different. You can't criticize Mandarin because you're clueless of it; while the community may have 0 knowledge of programming but they do have knowledge of how a game should work. As I said above, since we are customers I believe we have the right to complain if Cyanide sells us a game with features that don't work
The Hobbit wrote:
Well I exaggerate a bit, but what point are you making?
The game is still good, we all clearly enjoy it or we wouldn't play it, but this is just things anyone can do. To fix the issues there is probably quite a lot of work, and if all you people who think it is unacceptably bad could make a better game I'd happily buy it but my guess is you couldn't.
There are lots of issues which should have no place, and canbe spotted easily but I wouldn't complain, it's like criticising someone else's idea/work when you have no idea/haven't done any work yourself.
Also what is the point of this.
We pay for the game we can complain about it. Yes we get it. Cyanide needs money to continue with PCM. But the junk they turned out this year has a lot of people taking a pass. Me included. That's Cyanide fault not paying customers. Cyanide will live or die on the product they turn out. Right now things don't look so good.
The Hobbit wrote:
Like M. Luigi said, what the community does helps make the game better, but you can't play it without the core programme. At least I think that's what he meant.
I didn't really say that (that the community helps make the game better), and didn't mean that without programmers you can't play the game (which is quite obvious) What I meant was that stuff like shirts/stages/new riders shouldn't be worries of the programmers, so saying "Cyanide can't make a PCM that works but then again they have all these other stuff like shirts and stages to do" makes little sense, since the guys who are supposed to make the game work shouldn't be linked to the shirts/stages work.
The Hobbit wrote:
I'm not saying I blame you for the game, that would be overly dumb. But I think people should get off Cyanide's back. There may not be many programmers in our community, so why is that?
It's hard
It's boring
No one has the time.
I bet that there aren't many chemical engineers in the community too. Like programmers or most jobs, it's not common to find people who do exactly that. If you take a big group of people, a few of them will work with something; another few will work with another thing; and so on. Likewise, in the community, a few people are programmers, a few people have another certain job, and so on (obviously there's a bigger chance of finding programmers or people linked to that area in a game forum than finding a cook for example, but I hope my point is clear anyway ).
If programming is hard and boring, the programmers at Cyanide shouldn't have chosen that job, or should have quit it at some point. 'Not having time' doesn't apply either, since that's their job. It's not like a work in the community that you do whenever you have time/willingness. Additionally, we pay for the game, and if version after version it has crucial problems, it's only fair that we complain to at least have these things fixed.
The Hobbit wrote:
Therefore why are you moaning for them doing badly at something you can't do better. I wouldn't criticise someon'es mandarin because I don't like it if I have no knowledge of Mandarin.
It's different. You can't criticize Mandarin because you're clueless of it; while the community may have 0 knowledge of programming but they do have knowledge of how a game should work. As I said above, since we are customers I believe we have the right to complain if Cyanide sells us a game with features that don't work
Ummm, hang on what.
For the first one that is what I meant with what I said.
With the second one, I think you are missing the point. If I hire a cook and I don't really like his food I don't complain on his official forum or tell other people it is rubbish (unless I'm a critic) because a. They might like it. B under the circumstances, its easy for me (us) to judge those mistakes but when under pressure it's hard to make choices. I know this from playing sport. Also u r all making it sound as if they sit around doing nothing all day, but I've done a little bit of programming and it would take me years upon years to do one of the small changes. (Exaggeration, anyone who picks upon that is officially an ideot)
For the third one lets take an approach with School, something I know at least a bit of. If my classmate sells me their homework because I have forgotten to bring mine in, (normally other way round honest ) I wouldn't complain if I got it back and it was 1% above the pass mark, because without it I'd have had nothing.
Feel free to analyse this as much as you want and come to the same conclusion you'd have come to anyway, also Luigi. Why. Did u first defend cyanide then slam them.
This should be renamed to crazy reference is pcm good weird discussion thing, its a tad bit out of hand....
Edited by The Hobbit on 15-09-2013 07:49
Concerning the 2nd point, I didn't use a cook as an example to 'criticizing without knowing', but rather to show that finding programmers was like finding any other specific job - which is not something that every 1 in 2 persons will do ( = explaining why you won't find a bunch of programmers in this forum, not because it's "boring" or "no one has the time" ). But concerning the critic part:
If I hire a cook and I don't really like his food I don't complain on his official forum or tell other people it is rubbish (unless I'm a critic) because a. They might like it.
Assuming that I'd have a reference (for example, another cook whose food I liked), yes, I wouldn't recommend the first one to other people. But I don't feel this comparison is much similar to PCM; food is subjective, so like you wrote I might not like it but others might. In PCM, however, we're talking about stuff that doesn't work, and it doesn't work for everyone. Either that or find me someone who likes the broken features
B under the circumstances, its easy for me (us) to judge those mistakes but when under pressure it's hard to make choices.
I don't see why would Cyanide be under pressure in their ~8 months of developing the game. If there's such pressure, then it must happen to all companies who produces game. In this case, again this doesn't justify the bugs of PCM since other companies under this same 'pressure' can create games that work properly.
Also u r all making it sound as if they sit around doing nothing all day
They go on vacation in August in every year (right the time you'd expect the last bugs to be fixed and start enjoying careers)
I've done a little bit of programming and it would take me years upon years to do one of the small changes. (Exaggeration, anyone who picks upon that is officially an ideot)
That's true, I don't really know anything about programming so I can't say how much time it takes to do stuff. Lachi, however, is a programmer as far as I know, and he also complains. If it really takes that much time to do stuff, I think Cyanide should do a better planing of the future games and concentrate on fixing old bugs rather than add new unfinished features.
About the school point, it's something interesting. Indeed, without Cyanide we wouldn't have any decent cycling game. But Cyanide's interest in selling the game is as big as ours buying it. PCM has been released for more than 10 years so certainly Cyanide can't be having financial loss all this time.
Also, again this is a comparison I don't like much. Because you passing 1% above the pass mark or passing with 100% note has the same effect = you've passed. A game doesn't work like that. The better it is/the less bugs it has = more enjoyment. Additionally, your friend wasn't supposed to give you something that would make you 100% for sure; Cyanide, however, is supposed to give us a working product as a producer-consumer relation (as far as I know the default game can have bugs but then they're supposed to fix them all through patches - not sure, but I've read something like that once).
Feel free to analyse this as much as you want and come to the same conclusion you'd have come to anyway, also Luigi. Why. Did u first defend cyanide then slam them.
I think you've misunderstood me, at least in this thread I've certainly not defended Cyanide. In my first post, I've mentioned that there was more work than cio was writing; however this work had nothing to do with selling us a game that works properly
Excellent well reasoned on the money posts here, lluuiiggii. I hope Cya take note of exactly what one of the lead .db makers of the moment thinks of the game in its current state.
IgorThaHunter wrote:
It's true, shld have put this message up on the Cyanide forum.
I think you're better off putting it here, imo. Since CT created PCM.daily all those years ago, this has been the place someone from Cya has been most likely to read something posted in English.
Rin wrote:
Why would you write here something regarding Cyanide?
Write it in their forums because they read/follow it every day
I doubt they read it, or they dont give a heck about what is written there. Because other way they would maybe notice that several bugs are reported for years, or that many people are not happy with their product. Or they notice it, but dont caree at all (i think this is the case).
I really dont get people who are defending the company with thy are so small and they are really trying, they have tiny budget. They can start by firing the people that does horrible job and there have to be lot of them at Cyanide. Also, i dont care as customer, that is their problem.
Game is not moving to right direction for years now, hopefully it will get better. But i dont believe it, as many people are okay with half- done game.
The Hobbit wrote:
Well I exaggerate a bit, but what point are you making?
The game is still good, we all clearly enjoy it or we wouldn't play it, but this is just things anyone can do. To fix the issues there is probably quite a lot of work, and if all you people who think it is unacceptably bad could make a better game I'd happily buy it but my guess is you couldn't.
There are lots of issues which should have no place, and canbe spotted easily but I wouldn't complain, it's like criticising someone else's idea/work when you have no idea/haven't done any work yourself.
Also what is the point of this.
This is business, not some "they do it because they like cyling and us fans" game. They develop, we buy. We dont like the product, we tell it. Simple rules.
Rin wrote:
Why would you write here something regarding Cyanide?
Write it in their forums because they read/follow it every day
I doubt they read it, or they dont give a heck about what is written there.
Just because there aren't a lot of posts in the english part of the Cya forums compared to the french one because they parlent de monde, how could you assume that they just read the French part of the Forum and give nothing about the english ones?
This isn't 2005.
Team Bianchi - 2012 Man-Game ProContinental Tour Champions
I assume that, because i have seen posts there about problems of the game that are not repaired for years. So either they dont read it, or they dont care about that posts, or they are not able to/dont want to fix that problems. All of these three options is Cyanide fail.
-Equipment stats not working
-TTT's horribly unplayable/unrealistic
-Unrealistic quick sim
-AI not using training camps
-Weird and unrealistic transfers
-Hilly TT's too easy to win
-Teams make a stupid selection of riders, leaving the leaders home
-Stats not working as they should be working (first ACC, now RES)
I would have preferred if Avin would have answered that one so this would have gone to the right adress:
Do you think the french community is so dumb that they haven't managed to notice this and have posted that in the Cya forums?
So why should you again write something here regarding Cyanide/PCM and not directly to Cyanide?.. Nevermind if they haven't fixed it for years or did whatever you want to critizise them.
We are not the developers of the game so again even if it falls to deaf ears:
Write to Cyanide or write in their forums!!
They can english as otherwise how could I have got into the beta test plus writing them.
Team Bianchi - 2012 Man-Game ProContinental Tour Champions
I was away, so i am glad that ShortsNL posted that, dont know why it changes anything on fact that it is broken, because i was not the one who wrote it.
We are on discussion forum about Pro cycling manager, are you really surprised that i discuss problems with the game and its developer in the thread that i even did not started? If i wish to tell something to Cyanide, i will do it, dont worry. Saying me again and again that it is unnecessary to post something like that here is even more unnecessary.
And i dont know what french community is adressing, i dont speak their language, so i am talking about it at biggest english speaking pages about PCM, strange really? I just know they use to go on two months holiday after releasing bugged product.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 17-09-2013 06:37
What I meant was that stuff like shirts/stages/new riders shouldn't be worries of the programmers, so saying "Cyanide can't make a PCM that works but then again they have all these other stuff like shirts and stages to do" makes little sense, since the guys who are supposed to make the game work shouldn't be linked to the shirts/stages work.
) I wouldn't complain if I got it back and it was 1% above the pass mark, because without it I'd have had nothing.
