alexanderlens wrote:
I don't judge riders by there results, I judge them by how they ride there races. Never saw Felline in front at a big race this year.
He almost won a stage in the Giro, he won appennino and memorial pantani at the age of 22. At that age Talansky was still riding Tour De L'Avenir
Wich Talansky won. And Gesink nearly won 2009's vuelta... Does that count? No way.
Appennino and Memorial Pantani are local itallian races without big riders who are not italian.
Actually Quintana won that edition
Epic mistake. I'm sorry. But Talansky won the tour de l'Avenir sometime...
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alexanderlens wrote:
[quote]issoisso wrote:
Do that. I love this discussion. And to make you have a nice dinner: Biggest bust of all: Miha Svab.
Eh?
alexanderlens wrote:
P.S. I talked with my doctor. He sad there is just an cure: discuss it.!!
Seriously though, you're calling some of the all time greats "Busts". You have to be trolling
cactus-jack wrote:
I can't be bothered to read 6 pages, that's a pleb-job, so I'll just ask.
From what I saw fro the first page you are talking about riders who were huge talents but only turned out to be "kinda okey" riders. However, do you now of any riders who have REALLY bombed? Like a guy who was hailed as the next big thing, but who now is riding for some Bulgarian less-than-amateur team?
I wanted to go there, which is why I mentioned China, Kaioumov, etc
But seems most others wanted to talk about "kinda okay" riders or brilliant top level riders who "but he didn't win THIS race, so he's kind of a bust right?" like Ullrich. Yeah, I know.
alexanderlens wrote:
I remember a story from football; the youth team of Manchester United which consisted of players such as Butt, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, etc. is still hailed as the best youth team of all time and 10 out of the 11 players all ended up world class players.
Except for one guy, who is now working as a plumber in Manchester.
I know about a billion stories like those from football. It's way more common since youth football demands very different characteristics to pro football. One of the most common things said by pro players in interviews is "there was this guy I played in u-15s with, he was way better than me"
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Voeckler then. Four stage wins, polkadot jersey winner and fourth overall at the TDF. Just those results are far better than a lot of riders ever achieve. And apart from that, he has tons of stage wins, GC victories and one day race victories. I fail to understand how you can see him as a bust.
Breakaway results doesn't count in my opinion. Look at Bakelandts at page 3 or 4.
4th thanks to a breakaway, 6th without.
For somebody who's never been considered a GC rider (definitely not on three weeks at least), it's not that bad, eh ?
That isn't is bad at all, I think that he got the maximum of his carreer. I'm sorry for the missunderstanding, but I ment that the papers made him a big GT rider, and he never made it in that way.
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Pellizotti2 wrote:
So you're saying that if you're a stage racer who've never won a GT, you're a bust? If that's your serious opinion, then I'm just shocked. Nothing more to say.
Except for Gesink, he became fifth, which is a great achievement
It is!
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alexanderlens wrote:
Breakaway results doesn't count in my opinion.
That's a ridiculous argument, in my opinion.
Why shouldn't they count? Also, at what point does a long-range attack count as a breakaway to you? Didn't Schleck's Galibier solo ride from last year count according to you? Did Contador win this year's Vuelta in a way that doesn't count?
It counts if you like the guy, or if the guy is ownz, or rather if he pwnz. If he goes into a break, that's the sign he sucks major donkey dicks.
Yes, I'm using Ruben's language from a decade ago, so what ?
Hahaha
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issoisso wrote:
[quote]alexanderlens wrote:
Do that. I love this discussion. And to make you have a nice dinner: Biggest bust of all: Miha Svab.
Eh?
Biggest bust ever. Won everyting at the youth, defeated nibali and Dekker (dekker tells about it in his book.) Never achieved anything.
You have to be trolling- No way. Name the big riders who I called a bust without a good reason.
cactus-jack wrote:
I can't be bothered to read 6 pages, that's a pleb-job, so I'll just ask.
From what I saw fro the first page you are talking about riders who were huge talents but only turned out to be "kinda okey" riders. However, do you now of any riders who have REALLY bombed? Like a guy who was hailed as the next big thing, but who now is riding for some Bulgarian less-than-amateur team?
I wanted to go there, which is why I mentioned China, Kaioumov, etc
But seems most others wanted to talk about "kinda okay" riders or brilliant top level riders who "but he didn't win THIS race, so he's kind of a bust right?" like Ullrich. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry.
I think it's me against the rest of the world.
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Its quite beyond me how can anyone mention Jan Ullrich in this thread. 2 time ITT World Champion, Tour de France and Vuelta winner, Olimpic Champion, 3 times runner-up in TdF. Guy is considered one of the best riders of his time and yet some call him a bust? In what way?
Would you call Cristiano Ronaldo a bust because he hasnt won WC with Prtugal and came up second 3 times in a row behind Messi in Golden Ball voting?
Same with i.e Gesnik or Anton. I would call them "disapponitmnents" rather than busts, Especially that both still have a few yers ahead of them.
Abaddon wrote:
Its quite beyond me how can anyone mention Jan Ullrich in this thread. 2 time ITT World Champion, Tour de France and Vuelta winner, Olimpic Champion, 3 times runner-up in TdF. Guy is considered one of the best riders of his time and yet some call him a bust? In what way?
Would you call Cristiano Ronaldo a bust because he hasnt won WC with Prtugal and came up second 3 times in a row behind Messi in Golden Ball voting?
Same with i.e Gesnik or Anton. I would call them "disapponitmnents" rather than busts, Especially that both still have a few yers ahead of them.
1. Ullrich ain't a bust. Completely agree!
2. Ronaldo never made it through at the national equipe, but that's off topic.
3. Read my lips: Gesink will never be a bust!
But seriously, Anton would have won the vuelta without that accident, but it's quite strange he never achieved anything after that...
Edited by alexanderlens on 26-09-2012 20:30
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cactus-jack wrote:
I can't be bothered to read 6 pages, that's a pleb-job, so I'll just ask.
From what I saw fro the first page you are talking about riders who were huge talents but only turned out to be "kinda okey" riders. However, do you now of any riders who have REALLY bombed? Like a guy who was hailed as the next big thing, but who now is riding for some Bulgarian less-than-amateur team?
He's already been mentioned, but Markus Fothen must be by far one of the rider who's been a bust. From white jersey contender, to become not even a mediocre cyclist.
alexanderlens wrote: You have to be trolling- No way. Name the big riders who I called a bust without a good reason.
Dude, you can't be serious. Not only you're ignoring several stuff when talking about some riders but you've also contradicted yourself some times.
alexanderlens wrote:
I don't judge riders by there results, I judge them by how they ride there races. Never saw Felline in front at a big race this year.
You say that you don't judge riders by results and instead by how they ride their races, yet you say this about Voigt:
alexanderlens wrote: Voigt, Never won anything big except 2 tour stages
Ignoring the rest of his results and what he's done in races for his team - usually in those cases not getting the best results ofc.
alexanderlens wrote:
Vinokourov, doper, bought the 2010 LBL, samething for 2012 olympics. Never liked him.
And won a freakin' GT (that makes him a "not-a-bust" for a stage racer right?), several other PT/WT stage races and some more PT classics, but who cares for these results right? Oh and tell me more about him buying the Olympics.
alexanderlens wrote:
RodrÃguez? Bust. This is intresting story. Won La Flèche Wallonne, but only because Gilbert was not in shape. Won several GT stages, but after this years vuelta, it seems clear he will never win a GC.
You know, Arashiro was the one supposed to win this year's TdF, but unfortunately for him there were 83 riders in better shape than him. So I guess this discredits what these 83 riders have done, and makes Arashiro the moral winner of the Tour, right? As for winning a GT, which you also mentioned when talking about S. Sánchez as "will never win one", a year ago everyone was sure that Cobo and Hesjedal would eventually win a GT, right? I mean, finishing multiple times on GT podiums is certainly not the kind of results you'd expect for someone who ever intends to think of winning one of them.
alexanderlens wrote:
Greipel: close to bust: he was the gay who would beat the cav. Never saw him doing that.
I believe you should re-watch some stages of the TdF from the last couple of years. You can say that Cav does win more often, but saying Greipel's never done it is just wrong (unless you haven't seen the stages, in that case "never saw him doing that" would be right) because Greipel has done it - including a time when both of them were in the 'perfect' situation, so nothing to be said about it.
alexanderlens wrote:
Tony Martin? Lost cause. I already wrote about Martin: great ITT rider, sucks in stage races.
By stage races you must be thinking only of GTs right? Because I can't see how wins in Paris Nice and Eneco Tour and other good results in Pais Vasco/Tour de Romandie/Tour de Suisse and others qualify as "sucks in stage races". And by that logic, it's not enough for a rider to be the best in the world more than once in the time trial, he also needs to climb right? In that case Phinney is nearly the same lost case, yet you say his 2nd WC ITT qualifies him as a 'non-bust'.
alexanderlens wrote:
Thirt, Voeckler: great breakaway rider, but no way close to stage racing top.
That's true, but no one ever expected him to be an elite stage racer. That's why his 4th in Tour with breakaway and 6th without makes it for an excellent result, and why his successful breakaways achieve what he's been expected to achieve - thus definitely not making him a bust imo.
But the funniest part imo is when you say Feline won't win anything big because he's 22 and haven't got results, but highlights the fact that the Dutch riders you've mentioned on post #27 aren't old being 25 and 26 and thus can get more results. Or how you say that "a top 5 at the TdF a top result is. (gesink)", and yet claims Voeckler "Crap. He is." without adding a further line on that. Or how you talk about Mollema's points jersey in the Vuelta and later ignores that Rodriguez has won the points from the Giro. Or how you talk about Kruijswijk's non-GT stage win and later ignore the ones from Voigt, or Martin's, or how you mention Boom's Top 5s at the Worlds while ignoring Greipel's or Vino's Top 3 achievements on that, and lastly when you mention Boom's "several" classics Top 10s - which are actually only 2 when considering the PT/WT classics - and ignore Voeckler's or Voigt's Top 10s and Top 5s on those.
Or, should I sum it up - the funniest part imo is when you put a huge "nationality bias" glasses before talking about Dutch riders and highlighting results that you'd later completely ignore for the riders you were claiming to be busts.
Ps.: don't take it on the personal side. As you said, "You don't have to agree, as long as you keep on the discussion!"
The two that always come to mind for me are the Feillu brothers. Probably Brice more so than Romain. After Brice won that TDF stage as a neo-pro he has sort of floundered and he hasn't achieved a whole lot.
Edit: Also Dominique Cornu. Turned pro way too early and did nothing. Has probably found a good home at Topsport and also riding track but has never lived up to his promise.
Edited by CountArach on 27-09-2012 03:20
Romain doesn't have a season like he had last year, but if you check CQ, he was the second French in 2011, so it's not that bad, even though, of course, he didn't win any major race.
Brice did nothing too remarkable after his TDF stage win in 2009. He looked better this year though.
There's one thing about them (about Romain actually) that I've heard or read a couple of times, but that I can't find track of on internet though. Had to do with the Gerdemann pattern described above by issoisso.
lluuiiggii wrote:
Or, should I sum it up - the funniest part imo is when you put a huge "nationality bias" glasses before talking about Dutch riders and highlighting results that you'd later completely ignore for the riders you were claiming to be busts.
Just to add one of the biggest mysteries in cycling in my opinion: Rouslan Kaioumov.
Came to the junior worlds in 1999 as the major favorite for both the TT and the road race. Finished 2nd in the TT behind a certain Cancellara, and lost the two man sprint for the road race win to a certain Cunego.
Then disappeared off the face of the planet. And I do mean it, good luck finding ANYTHING about him afterwards.
I searched for informations about him but there is nothing reported on him after 1999. Strange thing. I really would like to know his story.
Back to topic: Thomas Löfkvist and Theo Eltink (both were expected to be at least top 10 Gt riders, from Löfkvist was expected even more)
Edited by ppanther on 27-09-2012 11:07
Not exactly a bust but a rider that never got a chance to reach his full potential (imo)...
Fabio Casartelli RIP
He had some great results and was only 24...
alexanderlens wrote: You have to be trolling- No way. Name the big riders who I called a bust without a good reason.
Dude, you can't be serious. Not only you're ignoring several stuff when talking about some riders but you've also contradicted yourself some times.
alexanderlens wrote:
I don't judge riders by there results, I judge them by how they ride there races. Never saw Felline in front at a big race this year.
You say that you don't judge riders by results and instead by how they ride their races, yet you say this about Voigt:
alexanderlens wrote: Voigt, Never won anything big except 2 tour stages
[Ignoring the rest of his results and what he's done in races for his team - usually in those cases not getting the best results ofc.
That was on a discussion that riders who didn't show much in the first part of their carreer, doesn't achieve much later. I think he's a wonderful rider for a team, with his experience and workingspirit.
alexanderlens wrote:
Vinokourov, doper, bought the 2010 LBL, samething for 2012 olympics. Never liked him.
And won a freakin' GT (that makes him a "not-a-bust" for a stage racer right?), several other PT/WT stage races and some more PT classics, but who cares for these results right? Oh and tell me more about him buying the Olympics.
On the first part: great job, I completely forgot that he is a vuelta winner. My mistake, Vino is not a bust. On the second part, I think Vino bought the olympics. As you can see in the summary, Uran doesn't sprint at all. Does remind me of Kolobnev in 2010.
alexanderlens wrote:
RodrÃguez? Bust. This is intresting story. Won La Flèche Wallonne, but only because Gilbert was not in shape. Won several GT stages, but after this years vuelta, it seems clear he will never win a GC.
You know, Arashiro was the one supposed to win this year's TdF, but unfortunately for him there were 83 riders in better shape than him. So I guess this discredits what these 83 riders have done, and makes Arashiro the moral winner of the Tour, right? As for winning a GT, which you also mentioned when talking about S. Sánchez as "will never win one", a year ago everyone was sure that Cobo and Hesjedal would eventually win a GT, right? I mean, finishing multiple times on GT podiums is certainly not the kind of results you'd expect for someone who ever intends to think of winning one of them.
Good one. To be honest, I think Sanchez has the Gesink-syndrom: he will get injured a lot. And to be honest: your right, I never thought that Cobo or Hesjedal would win a GT, but there wasn't much competition, althought Wiggins was pretty dissapointing for me in that Vuelta. Plus, I think Froome would have won, if he didn't had to work for wiggins.
alexanderlens wrote:
Greipel: close to bust: he was the gay who would beat the cav. Never saw him doing that.
I believe you should re-watch some stages of the TdF from the last couple of years. You can say that Cav does win more often, but saying Greipel's never done it is just wrong (unless you haven't seen the stages, in that case "never saw him doing that" would be right) because Greipel has done it - including a time when both of them were in the 'perfect' situation, so nothing to be said about it.
Got your point. What I mean here, is that when there will be a mass sprint, and with both Cav and Greipel, most of the times the Cav will win. I know Greipel won several times in races with the cav competing too, but he will never be the biggest sprinter if the cav joins the race.
alexanderlens wrote:
Tony Martin? Lost cause. I already wrote about Martin: great ITT rider, sucks in stage races.
By stage races you must be thinking only of GTs right? Because I can't see how wins in Paris Nice and Eneco Tour and other good results in Pais Vasco/Tour de Romandie/Tour de Suisse and others qualify as "sucks in stage races". And by that logic, it's not enough for a rider to be the best in the world more than once in the time trial, he also needs to climb right? In that case Phinney is nearly the same lost case, yet you say his 2nd WC ITT qualifies him as a 'non-bust'.
I never would have thought that anybody would say that Phinney is a stage racer. More likely a ITT rider. And yes, Martin doesn't really suck at stage races, you're right, that's incorrect. But I was in Germany when the 2012 tour schedule was presentated. In nearly every paper I read, there was something like:
Tour for Martin, TdF fits Martin perfectly, Martin for the win, etc...
alexanderlens wrote:
Thirt, Voeckler: great breakaway rider, but no way close to stage racing top.
That's true, but no one ever expected him to be an elite stage racer. That's why his 4th in Tour with breakaway and 6th without makes it for an excellent result, and why his successful breakaways achieve what he's been expected to achieve - thus definitely not making him a bust imo.
Right. To be honest, I'm not really fair. The only real stage races for me are the GT. What I mean is that the (french) papers told everybody that he would be a top contender for the 2012 tour.
But the funniest part imo is when you say Feline won't win anything big because he's 22 and haven't got results, but highlights the fact that the Dutch riders you've mentioned on post #27 aren't old being 25 and 26 and thus can get more results. Or how you say that "a top 5 at the TdF a top result is. (gesink)", and yet claims Voeckler "Crap. He is." without adding a further line on that. Or how you talk about Mollema's points jersey in the Vuelta and later ignores that Rodriguez has won the points from the Giro. Or how you talk about Kruijswijk's non-GT stage win and later ignore the ones from Voigt, or Martin's, or how you mention Boom's Top 5s at the Worlds while ignoring Greipel's or Vino's Top 3 achievements on that, and lastly when you mention Boom's "several" classics Top 10s - which are actually only 2 when considering the PT/WT classics - and ignore Voeckler's or Voigt's Top 10s and Top 5s on those.
True...
Or, should I sum it up - the funniest part imo is when you put a huge "nationality bias" glasses before talking about Dutch riders and highlighting results that you'd later completely ignore for the riders you were claiming to be busts.
Also true, to be honest: Gesink will probably never win a GT, if he's lucky he will get a podium spot. Mollema's future is quite unclear, but I don't think he will ever win the TdF. Kruijswijk, don't know it. Might be the next Zoetemelk, might be crap. Boom is a different story, IMO, he's a podium contender for Roubaix.
Ps.: don't take it on the personal side. As you said, "You don't have to agree, as long as you keep on the discussion!"
No problem at all!
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About Felline, i heard an interview of him after the Appennino and he said he usually helps out his teammates rather than going for the victory as he has a lot to learn. A lot of young riders often help out the more experienced teammate or captain and don't have much time for personal results in their younger years.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
