82 - Cancellara
81 - Vanmarcke, Stybar
80 - Terpstra, Van Avermaet, Thomas, Kristoff
79 - Degenkolb, Sagan, Vandenbergh, Boom, Boonen
78 - Stannard, Paolini
77 - Elmiger, Keukliere, Lampaert, Rowe, Debusschere, Oss, Wiggins
76 - Just way more than is worth typing up here...
Cancellara was looking as good as ever before he crashed out, and his results of the last few years can keep him up ahead of the rest.
Vanmarcke i was split between 81 and 80. At no point this year has he looked that good to me. But i'd give him 81, but drop his FL and support stats below that of the 80CB riders. Similar for Stybar but he should still have one of the better HL stats of the top guys.
Terpstra i thought might get 81CB but has the bit of inconsistency, give him a high FL as well. GVA gets a high HL and SP reltively speaking. Thomas should have possibly the highest FL of all the top classics guys along with a strong HL and support stats, he will be kinda beast but that is the season he's having. Kristoff is Kristoff, pretty beasty support stats.
Degenkolb comes with high SP and HL and after MSR also good RES and STA, 79CB balances it it out against GW and E3 and the fact he skipped the opening weekend. Sagan is as consistent as ever but was relatively underwhelming, i'd lower his FL a bit as well but his other stats will keep him an easy Top10 level rider. Vandenbergh needs a big FL stat as well, balanced by his complete inability to sprint and perhaps lower STA and RES. Boom pretty much the same as he is. Boonen needs a drop, for me it's to 79 if he keeps his support stats as they are.
Stannard was great in flashes as per usual, not much change needed. Paolini was awesome in GW but other wise a bit absent, 78CB will make it possible but not easy.
Then it's onto the 77's and 76's and etc where the differences are mostly made in other stats.
TheManxMissile wrote:
Degenkolb comes with high SP and HL and after MSR also good RES and STA, 79CB balances it it out against GW
...where he had a puncture right on the first Kemmelberg where no team cars were allowed, so he had to wait a long time for neutral service and never got back.
(hey Vanmarcke finished 53rd in RVV, how does he get 80+?!?! )
TheManxMissile wrote:
and E3
...where he finished in the group sprinting for third place, but somehow didn't seem to give a fuck anymore.
TheManxMissile wrote:
and the fact he skipped the opening weekend.
...which should totally influence his stats.
(just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not fanboying and arguing against the 79 per se, but give me more valid reasons please)
Edited by cio93 on 13-04-2015 15:04
Still don't really like that list. A lot of guys are missing, and I don't like backup stats being used as a balancer. To me, Stybar has great endurance and such, more than pure cobbles resistance. He should be at 80.
And your 77s are missing some good cobblers. It seems like you just copied the results of Roubaix.
And I'm still missing how Kristoff is being better than Degenkolb.
Edited by baseballlover312 on 13-04-2015 15:11
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
baseballlover312 wrote:
Still don't really like that list. A lot of guys are missing, and I don't like backup stats being used as a balancer. To me, Stybar has great endurance and such, more than pure cobbles resistance. He should be at 80.
And your 77s are missing some good cobblers. It seems like you just copied the results of Roubaix.
And I'm still missing how Kristoff is being better than Degenkolb.
I think 81 for him, since he looked very comfortable on the cobbles all the time. He was just not the main leader in his squad. The first time they did let him ride for himself was Paris-Roubaix, where he finished 2nd.
Ollfardh wrote:
Nice one Taf. I can pretty much agree with those stats. Although no idea how Oss ended up there, some people didn't even include him
Oss like Rowe only had three votes so they just qualified. But Oss has been really active all season from the MSR right through to the cobble races and impressive.
Ollfardh wrote:
Nice one Taf. I can pretty much agree with those stats. Although no idea how Oss ended up there, some people didn't even include him
Oss like Rowe only had three votes so they just qualified. But Oss has been really active all season from the MSR right through to the cobble races and impressive.
I see, but for instance I didn't include him in mine, so that means I would give him a 75. I think for the best results you should count it like this, but that's just my opinion
So, I think that some of you are making a mistake, as already pointed out correctly by TMM. If you won't decrease Cancellara then you logically can't decrease Boonen or viceversa, for the lack of results. In fact, I'm for decreasing them both. Nowadays, riders aren't riding cobbles anymore, they prefer either the grass or the borders. I haven't seen a single surprising or noteworthy attack in any of the spring classics. In this case, 81 would necessarily be the highest stat. Imo Cancellara is getting weaker and weaker. I mean: in 2013 he still was the best, but in 2014 Vanmarcke was on his same level already. You can argue it seems drastic, but it is not. If we want PCM to reflect reality, then it has to be like that, imho. Ronde was won with an attack on the flat, Roubaix with a sprint, Wevelgem with an attack on the flat etc. etc. Yes, you can even argue that reality is sh*t and having such low stats on pcm could partly ruin the gameplay. You are probably right, because everything ruins the gameplay on pcm. But scap that, this is my vision on the top cobbles stat:
81: Cancellara, Vanmarcke
80: Van Avermaet, Stybar, Terpstra
79: Degenkolb, Kristoff, Boonen, Boom, Vandenbergh, Thomas
78: Stannard, Sagan, Roelandts
77: Wiggins, Elmiger, Debusschere, Langeveld, Oss, Keukeleire, Leukemans
76: Paolini, Rowe, Lampaert, De Vreese, Bozic, De Backer, perhaps some ohers.
I'm probably missing someone, let me know just in case.
Edited by matt17br on 13-04-2015 19:34
matt17br wrote:
So, I think that some of you are making a mistake, as already pointed out correctly by TMM. If you won't decrease Cancellara then you logically can't decrease Boonen or viceversa, for the lack of results. In fact, I'm for decreasing them both. Nowadays, riders aren't riding cobbles anymore, they prefer either the grass or the borders. I haven't seen a single surprising or noteworthy attack in any of the spring classics. In this case, 81 would necessarily be the highest stat. Imo Cancellara is getting weaker and weaker. I mean: in 2013 he still was the best, but in 2014 Vanmarcke was on his same level already. You can argue it seems drastic, but it is not. If we want PCM to reflect reality, then it has to be like that, imho. Ronde was won with an attack on the flat, Roubaix with a sprint, Wevelgem with an attack on the flat etc. etc. Yes, you can even argue that reality is sh*t and having such low stats on pcm could partly ruin the gameplay. You are probably right, because everything ruins the gameplay on pcm. But scap that, this is my vision on the top cobbles stat:
81: Cancellara, Vanmarcke
80: Van Avermaet, Stybar, Terpstra
79: Degenkolb, Kristoff, Boonen, Boom, Vandenbergh, Thomas
I'm probably missing someone, let me know just in case.
At least add in stannard, sagan, roelandts and wiggins and then later I'll add them to the averages,
baseballlover312 wrote:
Still don't really like that list. A lot of guys are missing, and I don't like backup stats being used as a balancer. To me, Stybar has great endurance and such, more than pure cobbles resistance. He should be at 80.
And your 77s are missing some good cobblers. It seems like you just copied the results of Roubaix.
And I'm still missing how Kristoff is being better than Degenkolb.
Amen too that, i don't think people realize he just won the Paris Roubaix ( and second last year) while Kristoff never has ordered to follow the best cobblers in Roubaix. He even said himself he is bad riding on flat cobbles. The only downside on Degenkolb is that he never attacks, i guess he still have that sprinter mindset Kristoff seemed to manage to break out of in 'RVV'.
Edited by Naxela on 13-04-2015 17:08
One more thing before I shut up about Boonen. A few people here have commented in other threads about the absence of "the big two", "it won't be the same without Boonen and Cance" etc. And then now they want to put him at 79-80, not even amongst the top 5 cobblers. So yeah, which one is it?
81 Cancellara, Van Avermaet, Stybar and Vanmarcke 80 Terpstra, Boonen, Degenkolb 79 Sagan, Boom, Thomas, Vandenbergh and Kristoff 78 Stannard and Roelandts 77 Wiggins, Debusschere, Lampaert, Keukeleire, Rowe, Elmiger and Paolini
Shouldn't change much in Tafiolmo's average table. I was only in doubt about giving Lampaert 76 instead, but I think that it shouldn't change the outcome by much. With these stats Degenkolb will have the edge in a sprint versus Boonen and Kristoff, but in more hilly cobble classics Kristoff will have the edge on the hills instead.
Sagan wasn't that impressive and I still think he's better in the hills and in sprints, than he'll be after this years cobble classics. Vanmarcke was close to getting 80, but his former results speaks for themselves and he was quite unlucky this year. I wouldn't mind see Keukeleire and Rowe in 76, but Keukeleire has reached his potential and should be awarded for that
Ollfardh wrote:
One more thing before I shut up about Boonen. A few people here have commented in other threads about the absence of "the big two", "it won't be the same without Boonen and Cance" etc. And then now they want to put him at 79-80, not even amongst the top 5 cobblers. So yeah, which one is it?
Ollfardh wrote:Degenkolb, still not convinced he should be at 81. He's just not amongst the top 5 cobblers. He's a sprinter with a lot of power, who takes cobbles decently enough not to be dropped. He has the endurance for a long race (remember San Remo) and can be really strong on the flat. On the cobbles he can follow, but that's about it. But if you got his sprint, following is all you need to do.
Jesus Christ dude do you even watch the races? Degenkolb and Stybar followed every acceleration by Vanmarcke and Cancellara last year (they were the only ones to do so) and Degenkolb was pretty much always in the front in cobbled sections this year. Sagan and Kristoff might be better suited to RvV because it's a hillier race but Degenkolb is undeniably better than both in the cobbles.
Ollfardh wrote:Degenkolb, still not convinced he should be at 81. He's just not amongst the top 5 cobblers. He's a sprinter with a lot of power, who takes cobbles decently enough not to be dropped. He has the endurance for a long race (remember San Remo) and can be really strong on the flat. On the cobbles he can follow, but that's about it. But if you got his sprint, following is all you need to do.
Jesus Christ dude do you even watch the races? Degenkolb and Stybar followed every acceleration by Vanmarcke and Cancellara last year (they were the only ones to do so) and Degenkolb was pretty much always in the front in cobbled sections this year. Sagan and Kristoff might be better suited to RvV because it's a hillier race but Degenkolb is undeniably better than both in the cobbles.
Well cobbles are different in Belgium, the cobbles in the north of france are bad, In belgium the quality is pretty good. Anyway Why are you refering to last year, the stats have to be from this year not from some years ago. Otherwhise we can give wiggo 81 on mountain and so on ....
These are still the same even after Fabio Aru has placed his votes. Some changes in the % by decimal but not enough to even move anybody a point either way, which shows that even with all the debate most of us agree.
I had a spare 20 minutes and thought it would be fun and helpful to add up all the cobble stat suggestions here to find the average score for each main rider (I've rounded up or down to the nearest whole number) I used those that have put them on the last couple of pages Paul, Jesley, Ollfardh, Omloop, Kentaurus, Morganho, Naxela, Maddox, Manx Missile, Matt, SG Danny, Krisa and Myself and these are what came out:
I've taken off some of the other riders on 77 and 76 as they're not getting consistent votes and better to concentrate on the above main 16.
Btw I disagree with the argument about matching Cancellara and Boonen and that it's not fair to decrease one and not the other. Firstly Boonen has not performed that well for a couple of seasons now at this level, also I don't think even fully fit that he has another monument in him, whereas I can still see Cancellara still winning either Flanders or Roubaix.
Ollfardh wrote:Degenkolb, still not convinced he should be at 81. He's just not amongst the top 5 cobblers. He's a sprinter with a lot of power, who takes cobbles decently enough not to be dropped. He has the endurance for a long race (remember San Remo) and can be really strong on the flat. On the cobbles he can follow, but that's about it. But if you got his sprint, following is all you need to do.
Jesus Christ dude do you even watch the races? Degenkolb and Stybar followed every acceleration by Vanmarcke and Cancellara last year (they were the only ones to do so) and Degenkolb was pretty much always in the front in cobbled sections this year. Sagan and Kristoff might be better suited to RvV because it's a hillier race but Degenkolb is undeniably better than both in the cobbles.
No I don't watch races, I just look at the picture in the newspaper and make up a story in my head about what might have happened.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
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