Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian, of course the fans pay the riders. Not directly, but without fans, there would be no money to pay the cyclists and they could ride for free, not for thousands of euros. There are many jobs that are much more dangerous and are paid 100 times less...
So what, man? That adds nothing to the statement that he should shut up and do whatever he is told to.
If your boss would demand you to jump through firy hoops, would you do it? Because the man is paying you, you know. You're a whimp if you don't.
I don't think you understand how hard cycling as a sport is without the ridiculous weather or road conditions sometimes.
But, of course, the fans pay the riders, yes. So you go and explain that to Wouter Weylandt's family.
Well, nobody is forced to be a professional cyclist and danger is part of that sport, that is the reality. Principle of games is still same like in ancient times with gladiator games and people demand it, so they get it. That is simple law of supply and demand and it is all about business. Fortunately we are civilized enough now to get rid of cheering for death of athletes and we try to actually avoid it as much as possible with safety rules (unfortunately riders alone ignore these sometimes like at train crossing or several other actions).
Dont be mad at me guys, i am just stating obvious facts and i dont have personal joy from riders being injured.
That Weylandt remark is rather cheap, but i you want to discuss this specific thing, i believe that main cause for that crash was a riders mistake. He was looking back when he went like 70kms/h and did not pay enough attention. Obviously the road was not top notch, but would you better like riding only on highways or what?
Wouters death was really an unfortunate accident, but i dont think you can put it into context of this discussion, it could happen anywhere really...
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian, of course the fans pay the riders. Not directly, but without fans, there would be no money to pay the cyclists and they could ride for free, not for thousands of euros. There are many jobs that are much more dangerous and are paid 100 times less...
So what, man? That adds nothing to the statement that he should shut up and do whatever he is told to.
If your boss would demand you to jump through firy hoops, would you do it? Because the man is paying you, you know. You're a whimp if you don't.
I don't think you understand how hard cycling as a sport is without the ridiculous weather or road conditions sometimes.
But, of course, the fans pay the riders, yes. So you go and explain that to Wouter Weylandt's family.
Thats maybe also stretching it a bit. Decents, even tough and dangerous, are part of the game and can't really be eliminated. Off course you could sort those extreme out, but then again, I don't recall the one he died on to be extreme (could be very wrong here, didn't watch the stage).
I must admit though, I have a hard time listening to the Schlecks (when they were more vocal back in the day and demanding absolute no decents), Cancellara on many occasions (2010-stage, wanting to remove cobbles from the Tour etc) and so on. I think thats part of the beauty and as long it isn't TOO extreme, Im perfectly fine with that. And thank god the T-A stage didnt get cancelled. And the Val Martello the year before. The race can simply be too controlled and I don't want none of that.
Edited by Riis123 on 10-06-2015 09:37
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
That Weylandt remark is rather cheap, but i you want to discuss this specific thing, i believe that main cause for that crash was a riders mistake. He was looking back when he went like 70kms/h and did not pay enough attention. Obviously the road was not top notch, but would you better like riding only on highways or what?
Wouters death was really an unfortunate accident, but i dont think you can put it into context of this discussion, it could happen anywhere really...
Wasn't a personal attack or anything.
Of course there is risk involved. The riders accept that. But there is a limit, too, and people have to realize they can't use the riders as little pawns on a chess field. They are actual human beings and not toy riders.
So at least you can try to ensure (relative) safe conditions, decent roads and especially not letting them ride in 45°C!!!
I can't see how you can't agree with that
It's just common sense not to put the final kilometer of a sprint stage on narrow roads or with tram tracks or whatever.
Edited by Ian Butler on 10-06-2015 09:50
This is why every stage just needs to be a TT or TTT. You can cut out all the decents without cutting any spectacle or challenge, whilst still protecting the safety of the riders. Plus because stages are reduced in distance you could increase the ability to charge people to watch it on the roads and make it so that fans pay riders.
Seriously guys, vote for me at the next UCI presidential election!
TheManxMissile wrote: This is why every stage just needs to be a TT or TTT. You can cut out all the decents without cutting any spectacle or challenge, whilst still protecting the safety of the riders. Plus because stages are reduced in distance you could increase the ability to charge people to watch it on the roads and make it so that fans pay riders.
Seriously guys, vote for me at the next UCI presidential election!
Good idea!
Wait...
Maybe only indoor time trials on stationary bikes? Edited by Ian Butler on 10-06-2015 10:05
I can't be held responsible for teams like Belkin or riders like Martin that cannot ride bikes and frankly should still have stabilisers. Plus in 2003 it's raining and in my system all races will only take place in very limited conditions between 10-20C, dry roads and a light breeze.
Ian Butler wrote:
Wasn't a personal attack or anything.
Of course there is risk involved. The riders accept that. But there is a limit, too, and people have to realize they can't use the riders as little pawns on a chess field. They are actual human beings and not toy riders.
So at least you can try to ensure (relative) safe conditions, decent roads and especially not letting them ride in 45°C!!!
I can't see how you can't agree with that
It's just common sense not to put the final kilometer of a sprint stage on narrow roads or with tram tracks or whatever.
I never thought it was personal, i know you are not like that mate.
What you say about safety and spectacle is of course reasonable and nice, but reality is totally different. So we discuss how it is, or how it should be in ideal world? I know you are a kind and nice person, who cares about other people at first place, but you should realize Ian, that this is not the trend in the world.
I was like you, but reality destroyed my ideals and i became annoying ironic negativist. Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 10-06-2015 10:17
TheManxMissile wrote: This is why every stage just needs to be a TT or TTT. You can cut out all the decents without cutting any spectacle or challenge, whilst still protecting the safety of the riders. Plus because stages are reduced in distance you could increase the ability to charge people to watch it on the roads and make it so that fans pay riders.
Seriously guys, vote for me at the next UCI presidential election!
Good idea!
Wait...
Maybe only indoor time trials on stationary bikes?
Oh and without the, ummmm..., I'm not sure what else you could remove, the movement?
(watch from 0:18 and ignore the weird Lance Armstrong quotes, it was the best video I could find. )
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ian, of course the fans pay the riders. Not directly, but without fans, there would be no money to pay the cyclists and they could ride for free, not for thousands of euros. There are many jobs that are much more dangerous and are paid 100 times less...
So what, man? That adds nothing to the statement that he should shut up and do whatever he is told to.
If your boss would demand you to jump through firy hoops, would you do it? Because the man is paying you, you know. You're a whimp if you don't.
I don't think you understand how hard cycling as a sport is without the ridiculous weather or road conditions sometimes.
But, of course, the fans pay the riders, yes. So you go and explain that to Wouter Weylandt's family.
If I knew when I was hired that I'll most likely have to jump through fiery hoops, I'd either do it or not take the job in the first place...
I wonder: People who criticize cyclists who speak their mind and complain about unsafe conditions, do those people never ever complain about their work, school or about the weather? Is it all joy in your life everyday?
I'm baffled by the fact that cyclists are apparently not allowed to speak their mind and call out on things that are not fair to them. Avin has brought up gladiator fights, we are still far away from that fortunately but if you bring up supply & demand and the market, than maybe professional cyclists need an effective union, a simple voice of the peloton doesn't seem to be enough to save them from demands of the greedy capital aka the (apparently) "driving force of the sport"... aka "the fans".
Food for thought? Dunno. I ridicule Cance too when he gets on about his whining ever so often but besides that, in most cases there's (usually) reason for complain and some truth involved as well. Riders know it better than we do.
Edited by Shonak on 10-06-2015 13:12
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
It's not like the race organisers/Jury/UCI don't act in case of extreme conditions... They stopped San Remo, the Val Martello stage was annuled, they took cobbles out of the stage last year.
When you become a cyclist, you assume that you're not going to be put in an unsafe situation. Does that mean that if they complain they are not doing their job? No.
Of course you'd expect there to be a certain amount of danger in riding a bicycle 70mph or more, but is it their job to ride that fats on oily ground? or tram tracks?
Also, i'd rather not see cyclists decide they don't want to Risk their lives for mediocre pay. You don't need danger for this sport to be exciting, so why make it unnecessarily dangerous?
In the end it's up to the cyclist. If the cyclist thinks the stage is too dangerous to race on then they can drop back the pack and take it slowly and safely. If it's still too dangerous they can not ride at all. They have that freedom of choice. It's not cycling is the only job in the world they can do so if they were genuinely that concerned about it they would take more serious action. Complain all they like but if they keep racing the stages then the TV audiences will keep watching and the organisers will keep making those types of stages.
Most notably i think back to th 70's F1 era where the drivers took almost unbelievable actions in the end and ultimately the sport was forced to make changes. Or what about Lauda who was so concerned for his own safety in Fuji that he retired himeself, giving up the champinoship in the process.
Shonak wrote:
lol Always love the line when fans say "we pay them". Especially in cycling. Like how do we? Most of the guys on this board havn't ever attented a race, yet alone paid to visit one. If you have been a member of Euskaltel family or crowdfund a women team than certainly, yes. If you buy a BMC bike because of Gilbert than no.
Same with doping stuff, "but he cheated on us fans". Favourite line in all of sports, a rider cheated the gullible fans. Always cracks me up.
You understand how TV works right?
If you think any sports exist without the fans being the single driving force you are crazy.
And if you are so literal that you think attending an event and giving the rider 5 bucks = a fan, god I dont know what to tell you.
Yes, you have a point that fans bring money indirectly, but you have to remember that fans aren't the ones who physically pay the salaries. So it's not like you can say, "Well, I pay your salary. Do as I please."
I find it quite rich that you can sit at home behind your PC screen and call this guy an idiot and coward. Any guy who manages to get to the top tier of the sport is a guy who has taken shit for years and trained his ass off for years. Perhaps you should try to see what its like to have a job where you physically punish yourself for 25-30hours a week; receive mediocre pay; get your ass handed to you at a 3week race by guys who are physically superior only because they dope; be put in a situation where the line between safety and serious injury is super thin; etc. etc.
Fans do have an influence and should, rightly so, have a say in things. But there as a fan you have no right to demand anything that unnecessarily compromises safety and health. A 230-something km stage in a GT is unnecessary.
Shonak wrote:
I wonder: People who criticize cyclists who speak their mind and complain about unsafe conditions, do those people never ever complain about their work, school or about the weather? Is it all joy in your life everyday?
I dont complain publicly via internet and thus putting pressure on the organiser (in my case, my employee), If i was doing it, i would be probably fired in five minutes, that is how the normal job works.
And mediocre pay guys? That made me laugh, how are average salaries in your countries if you think that WT level cyclists are pay mediocre. Can i have some of your money?
I agree with Manx and what he wrote.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 10-06-2015 14:02
Other topic, Kimmage vs Verbruggen. Interesting article. Court case is going to be settled soon. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for the gas guy to come around... https://cyclingtip...ed-at-all/
Shonak wrote:
I wonder: People who criticize cyclists who speak their mind and complain about unsafe conditions, do those people never ever complain about their work, school or about the weather? Is it all joy in your life everyday?
And mediocre pay guys? That made me laugh, how are average salaries in your countries if you think that WT level cyclists are pay mediocre. Can i have some of your money?
Well you have to consider the fact that the average pro cyclist's career only lasts him 10-15 years (and as far as I know there's no pension scheme for pro cycling teams?). So somehow a rider needs to live off that salary for a very long time after they retire. One cannot simply "find a job" after retirement, especially if you don't have a degree. If you so happen to have a degree, your work experience is at least 10 years behind everyone else in your new job, so you basically have to start from scratch.
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