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Tour de France 2023
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| Shonak |
Posted on 19-07-2023 21:18
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Tour de France Champion
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Wow, what two days. Tour completely turned upside down. Vingegaard with the perfect preparation and brutal execution. I read that (Morkov said) Vingegaard memorized every corner, and I mean look at it, the guy went into aero even in the corners. The guy was on another level because he was so well prepared and fully determined beyond calculations and wishful thinking.
Today was strange; it's tough to see a champion like Pogi suffer like that but he takes it like a true sportsman and will come back stronger - I hope he takes his lesson too, and will start focusing more on GTs again.. while it is cool to see him in the classics, they are fun enough to watch without him, the Tour is where he is needed, esp if Jumbo gets that Saudi oil money.
Tu Felix Austria!! Felix Gall new Austrian Mountain Goat!!
LOL @ Pogifanboys calling Vingegaard a doper. Don't throw stones when you sit in the glasshouse.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 19-07-2023 23:30
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Neo-Pro
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Vingegaard makes Froome’s performances from the past look human. Froome was always cracking in the 3rd week but vingegaard is staying strong from start to finish, that’s crazy. |
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 20-07-2023 12:18
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Classics Specialist
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Vingegaard&Pogacar were climbing almost on par with the mid to late 90s heroes lol. They likely would have been only 20 seconds or so off Pantani on Joux Plane without the trackstand. Faster than Ullrich and Virenque. They also broke the record of Tourmalet.
Then they put 3+ and 1:30+ on the rest on a not even long TT.
And there are people thinking they may be clean?
The user formerly known as 'The Schleck Fan'
Gracias Alberto.
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 20-07-2023 12:25
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Team Manager
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Forever the Best wrote:
Vingegaard&Pogacar were climbing almost on par with the mid to late 90s heroes lol. They likely would have been only 20 seconds or so off Pantani on Joux Plane without the trackstand. Faster than Ullrich and Virenque. They also broke the record of Tourmalet.
Then they put 3+ and 1:30+ on the rest on a not even long TT.
And there are people thinking they may be clean?
To be fair, with the advances in sports sciences, equipment and all around professionalism, if they were doped to the same level as the guys in the 90s, they should annihilate those times and not fall short or beat them by a bit. Like, Ullrich did not work with a nutritionist year around, I can tell you that much. I'm not saying they're necessarily clean, obviously those are still suspicious performances. But also, the base level of performance should be higher today than it was 30 years ago.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 18:33
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 20-07-2023 13:06
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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cunego59 wrote:
Forever the Best wrote:
Vingegaard&Pogacar were climbing almost on par with the mid to late 90s heroes lol. They likely would have been only 20 seconds or so off Pantani on Joux Plane without the trackstand. Faster than Ullrich and Virenque. They also broke the record of Tourmalet.
Then they put 3+ and 1:30+ on the rest on a not even long TT.
And there are people thinking they may be clean?
To be fair, with the advances in sports sciences, equipment and all around professionalism, if they were doped to the same level as the guys in the 90s, they should annihilate those times and not fall short or beat them by a bit. Like, Ullrich did not work with a nutritionist year around, I can tell you that much. I'm not saying they're necessarily clean, obviously those are still suspicious performances. But also, the base level of performance should be higher today than it was 30 years ago.
This sounds very close to marginal gains
_____
The easier answer to all this, they are both (like the vast vast majority or pro athletes) using some doping.
Dopeacar was nuclear when he pumped 1'20 into Dumoulin in 2020. Vinge-goddamn-is-he-dope-d was nuclear this year. Really we should all be celebrating the true winner of this Tour, Adam Yat... oh... erm.. Ineo's Carlos R... erm, maybe... uh... Felix Gall?
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| quadsas |
Posted on 20-07-2023 13:20
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
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cunego59 wrote:
Forever the Best wrote:
Vingegaard&Pogacar were climbing almost on par with the mid to late 90s heroes lol. They likely would have been only 20 seconds or so off Pantani on Joux Plane without the trackstand. Faster than Ullrich and Virenque. They also broke the record of Tourmalet.
Then they put 3+ and 1:30+ on the rest on a not even long TT.
And there are people thinking they may be clean?
To be fair, with the advances in sports sciences, equipment and all around professionalism, if they were doped to the same level as the guys in the 90s, they should annihilate those times and not fall short or beat them by a bit. Like, Ullrich did not work with a nutritionist year around, I can tell you that much. I'm not saying they're necessarily clean, obviously those are still suspicious performances. But also, the base level of performance should be higher today than it was 30 years ago.
If that was true, there wouldn't be a 10 PERCENT GAP BETWEEN JONAS AND THIRD PLACE. I have no idea why people in here focus on Jonas v Pogacar when the issue is Jonas and Pogacar vs the rest. I have no idea why they don't even try to make it less obvious, doesn't help that Vingegaard is a total moron and just straight up keeps telling on himself
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 20-07-2023 13:51
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Team Manager
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TheManxMissile wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
Forever the Best wrote:
Vingegaard&Pogacar were climbing almost on par with the mid to late 90s heroes lol. They likely would have been only 20 seconds or so off Pantani on Joux Plane without the trackstand. Faster than Ullrich and Virenque. They also broke the record of Tourmalet.
Then they put 3+ and 1:30+ on the rest on a not even long TT.
And there are people thinking they may be clean?
To be fair, with the advances in sports sciences, equipment and all around professionalism, if they were doped to the same level as the guys in the 90s, they should annihilate those times and not fall short or beat them by a bit. Like, Ullrich did not work with a nutritionist year around, I can tell you that much. I'm not saying they're necessarily clean, obviously those are still suspicious performances. But also, the base level of performance should be higher today than it was 30 years ago.
This sounds very close to marginal gains
I get that but ... there should be marginal gains, shouldn't there?  Again, I agree that most athletes in most sports dope, I just don't think "he beat Ullrich, who was doped, so obviously he must be doped as well" is the strongest argument.
But yeah, I'm not going to say they didn't dope when they demolished the rest as quadsas rightfully points out. Although sometimes there are just complete outliers. I assume sprinters in track and field pump themselves full of all sorts of stuff, too, and yet no one could touch Usain Bolt for years because on top of all of that, he was a physical freak.
I don't know. Hopefully the remaining few stages deliver some entertainment, I'm curious if Felix Gall would be allowed to go into the breakaway on Saturday to compete for the KoM jersey or if the other GC teams shut that down entirely. Six wins for Philipsen if he gets today and Sunday would be pretty remarkable, too.
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| iNSUPERABLE |
Posted on 20-07-2023 15:57
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Stagiare
Posts: 174
Joined: 03-04-2012
PCM$: 260.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
Forever the Best wrote:
Vingegaard&Pogacar were climbing almost on par with the mid to late 90s heroes lol. They likely would have been only 20 seconds or so off Pantani on Joux Plane without the trackstand. Faster than Ullrich and Virenque. They also broke the record of Tourmalet.
Then they put 3+ and 1:30+ on the rest on a not even long TT.
And there are people thinking they may be clean?
To be fair, with the advances in sports sciences, equipment and all around professionalism, if they were doped to the same level as the guys in the 90s, they should annihilate those times and not fall short or beat them by a bit. Like, Ullrich did not work with a nutritionist year around, I can tell you that much. I'm not saying they're necessarily clean, obviously those are still suspicious performances. But also, the base level of performance should be higher today than it was 30 years ago.
This sounds very close to marginal gains
_____
The easier answer to all this, they are both (like the vast vast majority or pro athletes) using some doping.
Dopeacar was nuclear when he pumped 1'20 into Dumoulin in 2020. Vinge-goddamn-is-he-dope-d was nuclear this year. Really we should all be celebrating the true winner of this Tour, Adam Yat... oh... erm.. Ineo's Carlos R... erm, maybe... uh... Felix Gall?
If I go back in the past, is it possible to find your not so much sarcastic opinions defending skybots? |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 20-07-2023 16:21
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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cunego59 wrote:
I don't know. Hopefully the remaining few stages deliver some entertainment, I'm curious if Felix Gall would be allowed to go into the breakaway on Saturday to compete for the KoM jersey or if the other GC teams shut that down entirely. Six wins for Philipsen if he gets today and Sunday would be pretty remarkable, too.
I hope Ciccone or Gall can bag the KoM, rather than Vingegard scooping it up as a side-effect of winning the GC. Gall could get some room to attack, he's not a threat to Jumbo or UAE for the podium places. The spanner to that could be if Pogi keeps struggling and Gall becomes a threat to Ineos & Rodriguez for the Podium/White Jersey.
I think we really need Ciccone vs Gall in a straight duel for the KoM to keep these final few days exciting. Jonas has thoroughly earned his GC, as has Philipsen for the Green. KoM is the remaining battle and it could be a good one!
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| whitejersey |
Posted on 20-07-2023 16:49
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2904
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Great stage finish. Strong disruptive work from the other Quickstep riders at the front of the peloton and great work from Campenaerts up front, very happy for a Danish stage win, but sad Eenkhoorn couldn't close it out, he is one of my favourite riders |
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 20-07-2023 17:14
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yes, finally a Dane wins something 
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| quadsas |
Posted on 20-07-2023 17:17
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
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cunego59 wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
Forever the Best wrote:
Vingegaard&Pogacar were climbing almost on par with the mid to late 90s heroes lol. They likely would have been only 20 seconds or so off Pantani on Joux Plane without the trackstand. Faster than Ullrich and Virenque. They also broke the record of Tourmalet.
Then they put 3+ and 1:30+ on the rest on a not even long TT.
And there are people thinking they may be clean?
To be fair, with the advances in sports sciences, equipment and all around professionalism, if they were doped to the same level as the guys in the 90s, they should annihilate those times and not fall short or beat them by a bit. Like, Ullrich did not work with a nutritionist year around, I can tell you that much. I'm not saying they're necessarily clean, obviously those are still suspicious performances. But also, the base level of performance should be higher today than it was 30 years ago.
This sounds very close to marginal gains
I get that but ... there should be marginal gains, shouldn't there? Again, I agree that most athletes in most sports dope, I just don't think "he beat Ullrich, who was doped, so obviously he must be doped as well" is the strongest argument.
But yeah, I'm not going to say they didn't dope when they demolished the rest as quadsas rightfully points out. Although sometimes there are just complete outliers. I assume sprinters in track and field pump themselves full of all sorts of stuff, too, and yet no one could touch Usain Bolt for years because on top of all of that, he was a physical freak.
I don't know. Hopefully the remaining few stages deliver some entertainment, I'm curious if Felix Gall would be allowed to go into the breakaway on Saturday to compete for the KoM jersey or if the other GC teams shut that down entirely. Six wins for Philipsen if he gets today and Sunday would be pretty remarkable, too.
Usain never demolished the fields by 10% though. I can't believe anyone still cares about this Tour after that absolute debacle. Two guys just completely shat on every fan (except of course those stupid enough to think that cyclists are clean)
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| Arberg |
Posted on 20-07-2023 18:28
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Jonas Vingegaard produces almost no lactic acid in his legs and at an altitude of 2000 meters he can still pedal the same watts where everyone else loses 10%, therefore he is superior. |
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 20-07-2023 20:13
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World Champion
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reading that the break stayed away after seeing Philipsen basically run Eeckhoorn off the road because he kept attacking is probably my highlight off the tour (I spoiled myself off the result oops)
honestly amazing how much Philipsen has jumped up on the "massive cunt" counter tbh 
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| Flair |
Posted on 20-07-2023 21:10
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Domestique
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I'd say I don't know how Philipsen is still on the Tour if it wasn't for the obvious which is money.
At this point I expect him to rock up the Champs Elysees with an automatic rifle, shooting all other sprinters dead to ensure his victory full in the knowledge the organisers will shrug thier shoulders and say "oh, great victory for our green jersey champion, chapaeu." |
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| Shonak |
Posted on 20-07-2023 22:52
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
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I enjoy the performances, both may be doped but no one beats the Sky era.
Cunego has a great point too. There were major upgrades in nutrition, training methods, equipment, and team planning. People who doubt that never raced a single event. It's called progress.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| quadsas |
Posted on 20-07-2023 22:59
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
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Shonak wrote:
I enjoy the performances, both may be doped but no one beats the Sky era.
Cunego has a great point too. There were major upgrades in nutrition, training methods, equipment, and team planning. People who doubt that never raced a single event. It's called progress.
I guess only two riders in the entire peloton decided to improve their diets, training methods, equipments etc. right? Like only two people, everyone else is just not interested in that. Holy I just cant with you people, please try critical thinking for once
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 20-07-2023 23:48
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there are two (one stronger) contenders as usual, others are minutes far behind as usual....many people calling the strongest doped as usual.
I don't see any difference between this and past 30 years
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| Imladrik |
Posted on 20-07-2023 23:58
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Welp, this discussion surely is more interesting without trolls.
It would be interesting too to see how our local media present the race. E.G.here some of the most prominent commentators are Laurent Jalabert, Thomas Voeckler, Yohann Offredo and Marion Rousse.
On the race :
Very happy for Gall, who seem very likable. And yeah, I'd like to see some battle for the mountains in the Vosges, and maybe a Pinot Victory?
I finally should be able to watch the stage, on some summit I know (even though I couldn't go there on bike).
Happy to see the break manage to have today's stage, and Quick Step deserved a win, I think. Tomorrow should be interesting too, I'm not sure that many teams will want to work for Alpecin.
No motorbike scandal this time? More than the other day, organisation hides its failure by fining individual workers and the main media...I suppose the caravan cars which were blocked in the same placi weren't fined.
On doping.
I can get where all of you go.
My thoughts are that though they are dominant in the GC, Jumbo aren't near as strong as they were last year, when they got stages, all classifications, despite some hard days (cobbles) and not finishing with a complete team.
And I don't think the accumulated gains in all the fields in 20 years are that marginal. Performances increased in all sports, and I'm not sure that Vingegaard or Pogacar are more dominant than Messi, Ronaldo (x2), Zidane or the tennis big three are.
So yeah, we have to be critical - and I think most of us here are, given the history of the sport. But there's no point of following cyclism if one thinks doping at the first strong performance on the tdf.1
Tbf, Jumbo was maybe stronger in the Dauphiné.
MPCC could be a first solution. Obviously, neither Jumbo, UAE nor Quick Step are part of it.
“...the secret of the Great Stories is that they have no secrets. The Great Stories are the ones you have heard and want to hear again. The ones you can enter anywhere and inhabit comfortably."
A. Roy
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 21-07-2023 00:16
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Team Manager
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df_Trek wrote:
there are two (one stronger) contenders as usual, others are minutes far behind as usual....many people calling the strongest doped as usual.
I don't see any difference between this and past 30 years
I think it's fair to point out how unprecedented the time trial was. 10+ minutes on third place also hasn't been seen since the Armstrong days. In that way, this is more extreme that what we've seen for the most part over the past 20 years, at least. That said, I also can't remember a Tour where two favorites attacked each other this intensely from week 1. Even before the ridiculousness of this week, the gap to third was over 5 minutes. That's part of the context, too.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
