Very confused as to why we were working at the front in the second half of the stage. There's a group of like 25-30 and Warbasse, 19th overall, is pulling for Eg, 13th overall, when there's other stronger guys around him with more at stake and more pure domestiques. Seems like we emptied the tank kind of strangly and Warbasse would have been better off staying with Eg or riding on his own.
Nevertheless, it was a good result. I thought Eg might crack here, and I was especially worried once Laengen went. But Niklas had by far the best performance of his young career here and actually moved up to 11th on GC with a strong finish today. From him, that's pretty spectacular. Warbasse stays in 19th too and still collects a few points for himself.
Overall we came into this race looking for minor GC spots and that's what we got. It's boring to go an entire race without any stage results, breakaway appearances, or even attacks whatsoever. Especially with Aranburu being so lifeless. But we didn't bring a squad for attacking, so we'll take what we got.
Congrats to Lierse on a dominating display here, and thanks to Nemo for the awesome reports (like always!).
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
Starting to feel like the only riders worth rostering are hybrids/stage racers. Punchuer stages never end with enough time gaps for it to be worthwhile and theres just not enough "hill" stages on the calendar now.
To be fair, I don't get why people sent their puncheurs here, this was always going to be a climber race with stages 5 and 6 finishing on longer climbs and some tough obstacles before that. I'm kinda sure we saw the same thing last year. Gesink doing so bad really surprised me though.
valverde321 wrote:
Starting to feel like the only riders worth rostering are hybrids/stage racers. Punchuer stages never end with enough time gaps for it to be worthwhile and theres just not enough "hill" stages on the calendar now.
I think this is an example of the mangame and reality running into each other rather than an AI issue. PCM15 generated huge time gaps on hilly stages which why there were so many 80 HI 65 MT guys in the Mangame because without high hill you were going to get killed. Later PCM versions moved away from that which I am not sure is a flaw because I don't think that kind of rider or races suited to them exist in reality. But it makes it does make it hard to find stages that favor them for the mangame.
valverde321 wrote:
Starting to feel like the only riders worth rostering are hybrids/stage racers. Punchuer stages never end with enough time gaps for it to be worthwhile and theres just not enough "hill" stages on the calendar now.
I think this is an example of the mangame and reality running into each other rather than an AI issue. PCM15 generated huge time gaps on hilly stages which why there were so many 80 HI 65 MT guys in the Mangame because without high hill you were going to get killed. Later PCM versions moved away from that which I am not sure is a flaw because I don't think that kind of rider or races suited to them exist in reality. But it makes it does make it hard to find stages that favor them for the mangame.
I definitely used the wrong wording, but I'm talking more about the race calendar than a particular stage. Basque has always been a MO/Hill race, I understand that, and the final GC results in that. Im more so talking about how Basque, Jelajah, Beijing/Lithuania, Tour of Britain etc, which were all previously "hill" races, are now dominated by MO/TT riders.
Pretty much every race benefits having a MO/Hill/TT guy over a Kinoshita or EBH, which along with sprints being a complete gongshow, mean the teambuilding options if you want to be successful in the MG are pretty limited. I dont think PCM recognizes these types of riders as well anymore, in terms of being overall contenders for races even if the parcours are hilly.
valverde321 wrote:
Starting to feel like the only riders worth rostering are hybrids/stage racers. Punchuer stages never end with enough time gaps for it to be worthwhile and theres just not enough "hill" stages on the calendar now.
I think this is an example of the mangame and reality running into each other rather than an AI issue. PCM15 generated huge time gaps on hilly stages which why there were so many 80 HI 65 MT guys in the Mangame because without high hill you were going to get killed. Later PCM versions moved away from that which I am not sure is a flaw because I don't think that kind of rider or races suited to them exist in reality. But it makes it does make it hard to find stages that favor them for the mangame.
I definitely used the wrong wording, but I'm talking more about the race calendar than a particular stage. Basque has always been a MO/Hill race, I understand that, and the final GC results in that. Im more so talking about how Basque, Jelajah, Beijing/Lithuania, Tour of Britain etc, which were all previously "hill" races, are now dominated by MO/TT riders.
Pretty much every race benefits having a MO/Hill/TT guy over a Kinoshita or EBH, which along with sprints being a complete gongshow, mean the teambuilding options if you want to be successful in the MG are pretty limited. I dont think PCM recognizes these types of riders as well anymore, in terms of being overall contenders for races even if the parcours are hilly.
But the calendar is a function of the stages available - I think your last statement is right, PCM doesn't recognize those types of riders and I think that might be because they don't really exist to any degree. In the preview thread SotD noted that the mangame wants a predictable AI, maybe more so than a realistic AI. I think this is a similar situation, I agree it is good for the game to have a separate "pure puncheur" path, but we run into an AI that doesn't value that because the AI is trying to model reality.
I don't have the exact results in mind, but I'm not sure it's true that pure puncheurs can't perform, when we have Bruno Borges and Simone Ponzi, very explicitly just hill specialists, in 2nd and 4th in the most recent PCT rankings. It's early, yes, but opportunities seem to exist. I think it could be worth rethinking aspects of the calendar to balance those opportunities more, but I wouldn't go so far as to say those riders don't have a shot anywhere anymore.
valverde321 wrote:
Starting to feel like the only riders worth rostering are hybrids/stage racers. Punchuer stages never end with enough time gaps for it to be worthwhile and theres just not enough "hill" stages on the calendar now.
I think this is an example of the mangame and reality running into each other rather than an AI issue. PCM15 generated huge time gaps on hilly stages which why there were so many 80 HI 65 MT guys in the Mangame because without high hill you were going to get killed. Later PCM versions moved away from that which I am not sure is a flaw because I don't think that kind of rider or races suited to them exist in reality. But it makes it does make it hard to find stages that favor them for the mangame.
I definitely used the wrong wording, but I'm talking more about the race calendar than a particular stage. Basque has always been a MO/Hill race, I understand that, and the final GC results in that. Im more so talking about how Basque, Jelajah, Beijing/Lithuania, Tour of Britain etc, which were all previously "hill" races, are now dominated by MO/TT riders.
Pretty much every race benefits having a MO/Hill/TT guy over a Kinoshita or EBH, which along with sprints being a complete gongshow, mean the teambuilding options if you want to be successful in the MG are pretty limited. I dont think PCM recognizes these types of riders as well anymore, in terms of being overall contenders for races even if the parcours are hilly.
But the calendar is a function of the stages available - I think your last statement is right, PCM doesn't recognize those types of riders and I think that might be because they don't really exist to any degree. In the preview thread SotD noted that the mangame wants a predictable AI, maybe more so than a realistic AI. I think this is a similar situation, I agree it is good for the game to have a separate "pure puncheur" path, but we run into an AI that doesn't value that because the AI is trying to model reality.
The pure puncheur type is certainly a lot rarer in real life, no argument there. Most top puncheurs have at least 75-77 mountain irl, especially in the age of increased hybridization. But there are still a host of examples of puncheurs who excelled on what PCM used to call "hills" without success in the high mountains during their careers. i.e. Gilbert, Gerrans, Albasini, Gasparotto. Valgren more recently. Of course theose riders often had other strengths in cobbles or sprints, but I think a large mtn/hill disparity is possible in real life. It's infinitely more realistic than the "climber v2" model imo. Even a guy like Basso who was a high mountain diesel would never have less than 76 hill, yet our DB has plenty of guys like that. And yet you could argue that current PCM still handles those guys fine for the most part, despite their unrealistic construction.
But in any case, I think the bigger issue is that PCM had a real pure puncheur path when the MG was designed. In old PCM's these types of riders were possible to develop in game, so the game catered to them. Maybe not the Di Maggio types, but certainly the Kelderman's. And the game had a mtn/hill ratio so that player's could tailor the game how they wanted. Mtn/hill ratio was a good system that could easily be fixed/improved if they just allowed stage makers to change it for discrete sections within stages. Instead they totally redid the engine. Maybe it's more realistic, but it hurts the user control that we need for a game like this. For what it's worth, in the mtn/hill ratio system, the user could already edit stages to favor hybrids just by putting the ratio near 50%. So that's not new.
So, I do have to agree with Valv that new PCM's really do favor stage racers in all kinds of stage races, and it's not good for us. We can have realistic puncheur classics with very short hills, but that's it. Stage racers on the other hand have all mountain races and any mtn/hill races with a TT, and often can compete in the pure hills too to some extent. Part of that is that Stage Race is just an OP dev path in MG (this should be fixed), and part of it is the admittedly realistic result that stage racers can always gain more time in TT's than puncheurs can gain on them on the hills. Regardless of the reason, they are more consistent than almost any other discipline besides cobbles, and they have way more opportunities than cobblers. We can adjust race days and everything to make sure the points are still even enough at the end of the year, but you have to admit that it still takes a significant amount of diversity, planning, and excitement out of the calendar.
The bottom line is that MG benefits from having a wide range of disciplines and predictable execution, and PCM as it is today no longer offers that. That may be more realistic to current cycling trends, but it hurts the game (I'd argue it's hurt real cycling too). Even if everyone adjusted and the DB compensated with more apt riders, nobody wants to play a roster contruction game that just involves getting the few best hybrids you can and playing the lottery every race. It defeats the complexity for power players and the diversity of roster identities that play a huge part in roleplay.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
I agree with most of what BBL says. I agree the High MT, Low HI guys are hurt less than they should be versus reality although I think that has changed some and they too are losing out to the hybrids.
Absolutely agree the more varied paths is good for the game. I just am not sure there is a race design/stage selection fix. Also Valverde noted time gaps as an issue and that was part of my reaction. Getting races these guys can win is one thing, creating time gaps is another. In the last 5 editions of Amstel gold only 1 of them had less than 20 riders within 1 minute and that had a ton at 1:11. So it seems like that has some basis.
First of all I have to congratulate Lierse on the brilliant race he has had here. Clearly this kind of results propels a team to the rising places.
As for my team I couldn't be more satisfied, yes Paulinho was null despite having 76MO/80HI. But on the other hand Rodrigues and mainly Fernandes had a brilliant race, 2 riders in the top 6 of the GC is always a good result in any race and for any team.
As I've already said, I'm starting to have no words for the season that Fernandes is doing. Clearly it has been the biggest factor for our team, I hope that it can continue as unfortunately our leaders have been failing and we need points to keep us safe.
Well, ruddy hell! I definitely shouldn't've written this race of as I completed my planning for the season. Hoelgaard stirring memories of his inaugural season with us with an excellent stage victory and seventh (7th!) overall. Excellent reporting, and I am so very very happy with that as a result.
Disappointing end to an otherwise successful race. Drafting in Gesink as a strong (even if less than before) GC leader was definitely an off-season blunder. His physical downfall is having a massive impact which I had not foreseen.
Anyway, this was a great race. Congrats to Lierse.
Ulrich Ulriksen wrote:
I agree with most of what BBL says. I agree the High MT, Low HI guys are hurt less than they should be versus reality although I think that has changed some and they too are losing out to the hybrids.
Absolutely agree the more varied paths is good for the game. I just am not sure there is a race design/stage selection fix. Also Valverde noted time gaps as an issue and that was part of my reaction. Getting races these guys can win is one thing, creating time gaps is another. In the last 5 editions of Amstel gold only 1 of them had less than 20 riders within 1 minute and that had a ton at 1:11. So it seems like that has some basis.
You're right, and that's one of those areas where the game is clearly more realistic. It just makes it next to impossible to have proper puncheur + TT stage races anymore. It's something that doesn't exist in real life and for good reason, but it changes the way we need to think about our calendar. Puncheur races (realistically) don't create time gaps anymore, so we can't pair hilly stages with any other discipline that creates time gaps. Which is pretty realistic, but as we've agreed, unfortunate for our type of game.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
Ouch, we had everything going into that final stage, which makes it a pity to loose it all. Stake still with a solid race, eventhough such a finish makes you think "what could have been".
Amezawa's performance is a worry. Even if he rode as a domestique, I must admit I expect better, even a lot better.
Big congratulations on the GC double, Ollfardh! Also thank you for the reports all the race through. Enjoyable race, that's for sure.
