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Tour of the Middle East Discussion
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| Sykkel_Freak |
Posted on 30-11-2019 09:21
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2073
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A 9th and 11th for Selig is about what I would expect in this field. Congrats to viking!
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| beagle |
Posted on 30-11-2019 09:34
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4200
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Congratz Viking, I wish if Dege would have been as dominant as Ahlstrand is here.
Manager of Polar in Man-Game
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| Bjartne |
Posted on 30-11-2019 09:46
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Classics Specialist
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A stage as expected for us this, good to be in the break. Wonder if any of our riders can achieve a top 50 on the hilly stage to come.  |
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| Gustavovskiy |
Posted on 30-11-2019 13:40
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Team Leader
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Happy with Trillini's exploits, but these were 4 wated race days for Avelino.
Congrats viking!
Also amazing screens Kent, Cheers!
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 01-12-2019 02:02
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
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Ok, ok, I can live with that. Would have liked Bennett in the group ahead but a solid day paving the path for a good GC finish. Hopefully doing worse on this stage this year lets him do better tomorrow (plus his move to 80MO might help a little  ). Areruya also on track for a few points if he continues to be best of the rest in the U25 competition behind the 76-78 guys. A little disappointed in Dyrnes not getting a free role, but better than him being considered leader so no biggie! Also probably shows this was a MO stage in disguise which is a little bit of a shame.
Dissapointing for Beltran who surely would have hoped to be in yellow now. Pluchkin making no mistakes after last year's losses as you mentioned in the report. Congrats fj!
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 01-12-2019 03:57
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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I guess puncheurs don't like hills anymore in PCM 18. That's cool I guess. Wasted race days for JJ, but these were extra anyway.
At least the guys were active in the breaks. ideally that means you get something for the points or KOM, but no such luck unless Garby breaks away and does something crazy tomorrow.
I was pretty disappointed with Warbasse too, getting dropped on the hills, although it seems he recovered a bit and limited the damage.
Overall though, you just look at the GC in a race where we've had hills and no mountains, and it's all stage racers at the top. Everyone's a pure climber already. The puncheurs were dropped early in a hills circuit, while climbers with very weak hill excelled. It doesn't make sense, and it's not a good trend for competitive balance imo.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 01-12-2019 04:23
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Classics Specialist
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baseballlover312 wrote:
I guess puncheurs don't like hills anymore in PCM 18. That's cool I guess. Wasted race days for JJ, but these were extra anyway.
This is more of how PCM18 (and on) works. It isn't that the game doesn't like hills, it just changes them. In races like this where the overall amount of climbing is very large, climbers will do better. This better mirrors real cycling where you see more climbers in races like LBL where even though there isn't any big climb, it is simply the volume of climbing to be done.
For more technical description of how PCM18+ works, both MO and HL are used during any uphill section of road (>5% I think). The lower the effort level needed the more MO is used, a higher effort into using red bar is more HL.
Edited by Kentaurus on 01-12-2019 04:28
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 09:51
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 01-12-2019 04:27
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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Kentaurus wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
I guess puncheurs don't like hills anymore in PCM 18. That's cool I guess. Wasted race days for JJ, but these were extra anyway.
This is more of how PCM18 (and on) works. It isn't that the game doesn't like hills, it just changes them. In races like this where the overall amount of climbing is very large, climbers will do better. This better mirrors real cycling where you see more climbers in races like LBL where even though there isn't any big climb, it is simply the volume of climbing to be done.
Well that's not great for balance in the MG though, considering so many of our hills stages are circuits meant precisely to force selection in favor of puncheurs. And while climbers factor in to races like LBL, you wouldn't see every puncheur dropped by halfway through an Ardennes classic IRL.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 01-12-2019 04:33
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3999
Joined: 26-07-2011
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baseballlover312 wrote:
Well that's not great for balance in the MG though, considering so many of our hills stages are circuits meant precisely to force selection in favor of puncheurs. And while climbers factor in to races like LBL, you wouldn't see every puncheur dropped by halfway through an Ardennes classic IRL.
I do agree there, we may need to look at balancing. If I remember correctly how we did the PCM Daily expansion pack when we switched to PCM18 I think we found the best method was to adjust riders resistance values to help the pure puncheurs survive the climbs better. I don't think there is any adjustment that would help a stage like this, which is just tons of climbing (seriously even LBL has little climbing compared to this).
In the PCMDaily expansion pack I think we adjusted RES for all riders based on (HL-MO)/3, which created a ~+2 RES for many puncheurs and a -1 to -2 for many pure climbers which helped in balancing a lot.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 01-12-2019 04:35
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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Kentaurus wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Well that's not great for balance in the MG though, considering so many of our hills stages are circuits meant precisely to force selection in favor of puncheurs. And while climbers factor in to races like LBL, you wouldn't see every puncheur dropped by halfway through an Ardennes classic IRL.
I do agree there, we may need to look at balancing. If I remember correctly how we did the PCM Daily expansion pack when we switched to PCM18 I think we found the best method was to adjust riders resistance values to help the pure puncheurs survive the climbs better. I don't think there is any adjustment that would help a stage like this, which is just tons of climbing (seriously even LBL has little climbing compared to this).
In the PCMDaily expansion pack I think we adjusted RES for all riders based on (HL-MO)/3, which created a ~+2 RES for many puncheurs and a -1 to -2 for many pure climbers which helped in balancing a lot.
That might be a solution to look into then, although with extremes at the ends of the MG matrix for every stat, someone always would lose out in stat adjustments.
Like I said, I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom, I just worry that this will be a problem considering the amount of similar stages we have throughout the year.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 01-12-2019 04:40
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3999
Joined: 26-07-2011
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baseballlover312 wrote:
That might be a solution to look into then, although with extremes at the ends of the MG matrix for every stat, someone always would lose out in stat adjustments.
Like I said, I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom, I just worry that this will be a problem considering the amount of similar stages we have throughout the year.
That is the other issue we face, MG has a lot more extremes... you simply don't find guys in the typical DBs that have 80+ HL and sub 70 MO.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 01-12-2019 05:54
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World Champion
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Guys this might not be a new PCM problem, it's happened in MG seasons past. This is a new parcours from Stage 3 last year so a 1:1 comparison isn't fair - one stage worked as being kind of for the puncheurs (but was still for the climbers), this new one didn't.
I can think of tons and tons of stages in other MG seasons similar to this which are just MO stages in diguise no matter the HI/MO ratio. I agree climbers will have better chances in the hills now, due to the new system but "puncheurs don't like hills anymore" is a bit much from this result. The problem I think, as it was in previous editions, is the stage choice of these stages, if they are intended to be puncheur stages then it doesn't happen with these stages, but on the other hand plenty of other hill-rated stages did work as puncheur stages (that can still have GC potential and/or MO influence without taking away the puncheurs being favourites) in PCM15 and I think would work in PCM18 fine.
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
5x x5
2x x2
2x x2 |
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| viking90 |
Posted on 01-12-2019 07:43
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4032
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Well that went over our expectations with 10th place by Anacona on the "hilly"-stage hope he can wrap it up on the last stage an defend his good GC place!
FÃ¥glum Karlsson 2nd in U25 is good aswell! |
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 01-12-2019 08:31
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Team Leader
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Congratz to fjhoekie 
Very happy with the way my team handled this one 2nd is a great result for us,
Thanks for a great report.
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| fjhoekie |
Posted on 01-12-2019 08:41
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Grand Tour Specialist
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This is great, time to move from the relegation places really quickly, and never get back down there. Pluchkin should have this race in the bag now, time to also make sure Padun secures white tomorrow
Manager of Team Popo4Ever p/b Morshynska in the PCM.Daily Man-Game |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 01-12-2019 09:19
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World Champion
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Yeah Van Asbroeck not making the time cut a hilly stage with a 71 hill stat pretty much confirm my worst fears about PCM18. I echo BBL's sentiment that this could really hurt us later in the season.
Oomen with a good ride, let's hope he can hold on.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Gustavovskiy |
Posted on 01-12-2019 10:07
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Team Leader
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I was expecting a wide range of results for today, but I have to admit seeing Borges lose 7min to the winner was not within my grasp. Disaster race for us, with 3 of our best riders (Avelino, Borges and Duarte) completely wasting these race days.
Thanks for yet another thrilling report Kentaurus! And congrats fjhoekie!
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| cio93 |
Posted on 01-12-2019 11:12
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World Champion
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Nerz with a good ride that gives hope for the GC with a good climb in the last stage, and yeaahhh I expected this stage to become controversial. 
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| Marcovdw |
Posted on 01-12-2019 12:00
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Grand Tour Champion
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Good result for Uran, hoping he can climb onto the podium
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| Yellow Jersey |
Posted on 01-12-2019 13:19
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Classics Specialist
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Great stuff from Machado, kept safe in a mad stage full of traps, inside the Top10 and looking to only improve.
As for the hills, this stage reminds me of TA stage Fuglsang won this year, sure it's full of short and steep climbs but you've got to climb them several times and you can't possibly go all-in on all, it's all about having the legs to use your explosion, so MON IS essential for any type of climbing including stages like this.
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