Wellens doesn't climb well enough for the big mountains. Him winning it would've been worse then Bardet imo. Not saying Anthony Charteau bad, but still bad.
Ollfardh wrote:
Wellens doesn't climb well enough for the big mountains. Him winning it would've been worse then Bardet imo. Not saying Anthony Charteau bad, but still bad.
But at least Wellens tried to win it. Bardet won it by accident. You shouldn't be able to win a Tour de France jersey by accident.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
Ollfardh wrote:
Wellens doesn't climb well enough for the big mountains. Him winning it would've been worse then Bardet imo. Not saying Anthony Charteau bad, but still bad.
But at least Wellens tried to win it. Bardet won it by accident. You shouldn't be able to win a Tour de France jersey by accident.
Was he sprinting by accident at the top of the climbs?
Ollfardh wrote:
Wellens doesn't climb well enough for the big mountains. Him winning it would've been worse then Bardet imo. Not saying Anthony Charteau bad, but still bad.
But at least Wellens tried to win it. Bardet won it by accident. You shouldn't be able to win a Tour de France jersey by accident.
Was he sprinting by accident at the top of the climbs?
I think what Ringo meant is that he won the KOTM by accident, in the way it wasn't his main goal and only became a goal after he failed miserable in the GC.
And overall, despite having won the KOTM jersey, Bardet's Tour was god awful. He didn't win a single stage, and even in the breakaways, he seemed in awful shape. Better go to the Giro next year Romain.
Ollfardh wrote:
Wellens doesn't climb well enough for the big mountains. Him winning it would've been worse then Bardet imo. Not saying Anthony Charteau bad, but still bad.
But at least Wellens tried to win it. Bardet won it by accident. You shouldn't be able to win a Tour de France jersey by accident.
Was he sprinting by accident at the top of the climbs?
I think what Ringo meant is that he won the KOTM by accident, in the way it wasn't his main goal and only became a goal after he failed miserable in the GC.
And overall, despite having won the KOTM jersey, Bardet's Tour was god awful. He didn't win a single stage, and even in the breakaways, he seemed in awful shape. Better go to the Giro next year Romain.
Well it's not really an accident when it becomes your goal.
It would be an accident if Bardet wouldn't be interested in the jersey and it would happen for him to scoring points while going after something else, which is not the case since I'm pretty sure I've seen him specifically going for KoM points.
Ollfardh wrote:
Wellens doesn't climb well enough for the big mountains. Him winning it would've been worse then Bardet imo. Not saying Anthony Charteau bad, but still bad.
But at least Wellens tried to win it. Bardet won it by accident. You shouldn't be able to win a Tour de France jersey by accident.
Was he sprinting by accident at the top of the climbs?
I think what Ringo meant is that he won the KOTM by accident, in the way it wasn't his main goal and only became a goal after he failed miserable in the GC.
And overall, despite having won the KOTM jersey, Bardet's Tour was god awful. He didn't win a single stage, and even in the breakaways, he seemed in awful shape. Better go to the Giro next year Romain.
Well it's not really an accident when it becomes your goal.
It would be an accident if Bardet wouldn't be interested in the jersey and it would happen for him to scoring points while going after something else, which is not the case since I'm pretty sure I've seen him specifically going for KoM points.
ringo182 wrote:
Actually, forget that. I suppose the last two mountain stages got destroyed and so Bardet just got lucky this year in that he took the jersey and then most subsequent climbs got removed. Would probably have been different if the full profiles had been raced.
This.
Bardet kom jersey was a quite a farce in the end...the paradox is that the worst French rider (let say the one disappointed more) is the one got more reward from classifications
Funny thing is that I had no way to see Galibier stage and the day after I saw him with polka dot jersey, and I thought "how can be like this that I haven't see him so far?"
Ollfardh wrote:
Wellens doesn't climb well enough for the big mountains. Him winning it would've been worse then Bardet imo. Not saying Anthony Charteau bad, but still bad.
But at least Wellens tried to win it. Bardet won it by accident. You shouldn't be able to win a Tour de France jersey by accident.
Was he sprinting by accident at the top of the climbs?
Of course he didn't sprint by accident, that's just silly.
But he had no intention of going for the KOM until he got in the break on that day. He earned 4/5ths of his points in one day and then didn't pick up a single further KOM point in the last 2 mountain stages. He didn't even win any of the KOM sprints on that day. His other points were earned on stage 15, when he got out-climbed by Simon Geschke.
You shouldn't be able to win the KOM jersey by getting into one break on one day in a 3 week race. He scored KOM points on 2 out of 21 stages and won. He didn't pick up a single point until stage 15, and won.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
He did that because no one was interested in the KoM jersey. It's the riders fault for this outcome not the rules.
The only one who seemed interested about this jersey seemed to be Tim Wellens and looking how well he actually did when we got to the high mountains there is no way he would have been a better winner than Bardet.
I'm not exactly sure what the organizers could do to make more riders interested in this jersey. It looks like no matter what it's always 2 riders max who go after this jersey, even with the old rules we had this problems. This year was the worst though as the only rider who was really going for it wasn't even a climber and it showed.
Maybe they could get rid of cat 3/4 climbs from the competition. As I said a few days ago, It's King of the Mountains, not King of the Slight Undulation an an otherwise flat transition stage.
Make a maximum number of KOM sprints per day 2, or maybe 3 on the one "Queen Stage.
Reduce the number of points available.
Cat 2 - 5,4,3,2,1
Cat 1 - 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
HC - 20,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
All this would make it impossible for someone to win by getting in one break on one day.
Why not also give the winner of the KOM comp a 30 second time bonus at the end of the race. Or give the rider with most KOM points on each stage a 10 second time bonus. Might make a few of the GC riders take it seriously.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
Bardet went for it in the only real mountain stage, the other two got cut short or it would've been for Bernal. Wellens, as much as I like him, isn't enough of a climber.
"Trying to win it" shouldn't be an issue, otherwise we should give the yellow to Alaphillippe as he tried hardest to win it.
Ollfardh wrote:
Bardet went for it in the only real mountain stage, the other two got cut short or it would've been for Bernal. Wellens, as much as I like him, isn't enough of a climber.
"Trying to win it" shouldn't be an issue, otherwise we should give the yellow to Alaphillippe as he tried hardest to win it.
Why did he? Everyone in the top 10 or so tried their hardest to win it. Alaphilippe just suffered the most because he isn't a true GC rider. Suffering isn't the same as trying.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
ringo182 wrote:
Maybe they could get rid of cat 3/4 climbs from the competition. As I said a few days ago, It's King of the Mountains, not King of the Slight Undulation an an otherwise flat transition stage.
Make a maximum number of KOM sprints per day 2, or maybe 3 on the one "Queen Stage.
Reduce the number of points available.
Cat 2 - 5,4,3,2,1
Cat 1 - 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
HC - 20,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
I'm sure the KoM sponsor would love that there won't be a jersey in the first week
Ollfardh wrote:
Bardet went for it in the only real mountain stage, the other two got cut short or it would've been for Bernal. Wellens, as much as I like him, isn't enough of a climber.
"Trying to win it" shouldn't be an issue, otherwise we should give the yellow to Alaphillippe as he tried hardest to win it.
Why did he? Everyone in the top 10 or so tried their hardest to win it. Alaphilippe just suffered the most because he isn't a true GC rider. Suffering isn't the same as trying.
The harder you try, the more you suffer? Or is there some subtile difference in the english language that these verbs don't translate the way I think they do?
Bernal certainly didn't give it all on stage 19 (saving for what should have come) and 20 (only had to follow attacks that never came).
Edited by Ollfardh on 29-07-2019 13:17
ringo182 wrote:
Maybe they could get rid of cat 3/4 climbs from the competition. As I said a few days ago, It's King of the Mountains, not King of the Slight Undulation an an otherwise flat transition stage.
Make a maximum number of KOM sprints per day 2, or maybe 3 on the one "Queen Stage.
Reduce the number of points available.
Cat 2 - 5,4,3,2,1
Cat 1 - 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
HC - 20,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
I'm sure the KoM sponsor would love that there won't be a jersey in the first week
They could just do a ceremonial 1 point sprint somewhere on stage 1.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
Ollfardh wrote:
Bardet went for it in the only real mountain stage, the other two got cut short or it would've been for Bernal. Wellens, as much as I like him, isn't enough of a climber.
"Trying to win it" shouldn't be an issue, otherwise we should give the yellow to Alaphillippe as he tried hardest to win it.
Why did he? Everyone in the top 10 or so tried their hardest to win it. Alaphilippe just suffered the most because he isn't a true GC rider. Suffering isn't the same as trying.
The harder you try, the more you suffer? Or is there some subtile difference in the english language that these verbs don't translate the way I think they do?
Bernal certainly didn't give it all on stage 19 (saving for what should have come) and 20 (only had to follow attacks that never came).
But Bernal is alot stronger than Alaphilippe. Therefore he's never going to suffer as much. Therefore, under your definition he's never going to try as hard and is always going to be less deserving.
It's like saying I deserve to beat Usain Bolt in a 100 meter sprint because even though he beat me at a canter, I tried harder and suffered more due to my general lack of ability compared to him.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
I'm not really sure how getting rid of 3rd and 4th category climbs would stop someone who goes in the breakaway in the one big mountain stage of the Tour. If anything, it would help them.
The 3rd and 4th category climbs have a very clear purpose of having the riders that go in the breakaway in the first week something to fight for. In this regard, I actually prefer the old system where they gave slightly more points since now only the first rider over a 4th category climb is actually given something.
ringo182 wrote:
Maybe they could get rid of cat 3/4 climbs from the competition. As I said a few days ago, It's King of the Mountains, not King of the Slight Undulation an an otherwise flat transition stage.
Make a maximum number of KOM sprints per day 2, or maybe 3 on the one "Queen Stage.
Reduce the number of points available.
Cat 2 - 5,4,3,2,1
Cat 1 - 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
HC - 20,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
I'm sure the KoM sponsor would love that there won't be a jersey in the first week
They could just do a ceremonial 1 point sprint somewhere on stage 1.
This is where the Tour is embarassing in relation to the others. A 4th category is 1 point. 1 POINT. There is literally no motivation at all for those who want to win the jersey to actually go to the breaks in everything that isn't HIGH mountain. a 3rd category is just 2 or 3 points whilst in Giro it's 9. In the Giro those who want to win have to work through it throughout the race, not just wait and be in the break in a couple of days. (Vuelta doesn't have 4th category climbs, but it has climbing everyday and much more spread out climbing).
Not to take anything from Bardet, I love him and if he took it than it was cause he was the one that thrived on the race's rules and occurences, just saying they should REALLY consider changing the point system.
alexkr00 wrote:
I'm not really sure how getting rid of 3rd and 4th category climbs would stop someone who goes in the breakaway in the one big mountain stage of the Tour. If anything, it would help them.
The 3rd and 4th category climbs have a very clear purpose of having the riders that go in the breakaway in the first week something to fight for. In this regard, I actually prefer the old system where they gave slightly more points since now only the first rider over a 4th category climb is actually given something.
Replace the cat 3/4 sprints with one "Team Sprint" each day. The first rider over the line gets a 10 second bonus they can give to any rider on their team. That'll give the break riders something to ride for
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
alexkr00 wrote:
I'm not really sure how getting rid of 3rd and 4th category climbs would stop someone who goes in the breakaway in the one big mountain stage of the Tour. If anything, it would help them.
The 3rd and 4th category climbs have a very clear purpose of having the riders that go in the breakaway in the first week something to fight for. In this regard, I actually prefer the old system where they gave slightly more points since now only the first rider over a 4th category climb is actually given something.
Replace the cat 3/4 sprints with one "Team Sprint" each day. The first rider over the line gets a 10 second bonus they can give to any rider on their team. That'll give the break riders something to ride for
There are people complaining about team - time trials. Imagine if this was to be implemented
