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Tour de France 2018 | Stage 17
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| ruben |
Posted on 25-07-2018 22:35
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7721
Joined: 23-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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Baseballlover you are badly misinformed about Kruijswijk. His results are super explainable.
After his early good GT results, he had an issue with an artery in his leg, blocking the oxygen flow and causing real bad results. He had surgery in his leg to fix this. But recovering that cost another year.
Then when he was back to his best he had a real good giro before the one he almost won.
The 'bad' 2017 can be explained by an early crash in the Giro and a late abandon due to illness. And in the Vuelta he wasn't in good shape because of a preparation with illness as well.
So 2012-2013: leg artery problem
2014: first signs of recovery
2015/2016 really good
2017: very unlucky giro and bad prep vuelta
It's very easy to make all these half assumptions when you don't follow a rider closely. But most of the time it can be countered easily |
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| hillis91 |
Posted on 25-07-2018 23:48
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Team Leader
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PCM$: 1500.00
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Froome got pushed off his bike by a policeman on his way down the mountain today. Wtf  He thought he was a fan just riding down...
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 26-07-2018 00:06
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
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great stage. |
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| binga58 |
Posted on 26-07-2018 00:21
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 339
Joined: 03-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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I am relatively new to the professional world of cycling, only started following the tour in 2007 onwards. What seems odd to me is how so many young guys get ear marked for next big thing (Pinot, Bardet, Quintana etc...) and they don't quite live up to the expectations. Yet at Sky if you are a domestique, chances are you will be challenging for a tour within 3-4 years. Doping aside, is it feasible to make such fitness gains over 3-4 years to become an elite rider? |
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| SaL |
Posted on 26-07-2018 01:04
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Amateur
Posts: 24
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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binga58 wrote:
I am relatively new to the professional world of cycling, only started following the tour in 2007 onwards. What seems odd to me is how so many young guys get ear marked for next big thing (Pinot, Bardet, Quintana etc...) and they don't quite live up to the expectations. Yet at Sky if you are a domestique, chances are you will be challenging for a tour within 3-4 years. Doping aside, is it feasible to make such fitness gains over 3-4 years to become an elite rider?
If you take into account how much money Sky spends on research, both in technology and training methods, then that should give them an edge over their competition. Secondly you can train yourself into a lot of things, I am a firm believer that the mental part of pro-sports is even more important than the physical part. It's quite easy to maintain good physical shape for young adults, but it is very difficult to convince yourself that you really need those extra percentage points, which leads to absolute greatness.
I'll paraphrase into football. Cristiano Ronaldo is in near peak physical condition for a human, and has been so for about 10-15 years. In this time he has been hugely succesful, but still he hasn't lost his hunger for more, even though he has done virtually everything. The same can be said of Armstrong, it can be said of Froome, and any world leading athlete.
Maybe Sky has very strong mental coaches, leading to their riders being willing to putting in more effort, instead of being easily satisfied. Jakob Fuglsang is a great example of someone who's easily satisfied looking at his interviews, but when he truly dares he can make a result, it's just too far in between.
Long story short: I'd say it's possible, whether or not they are clean I don't know, but it is quite suspicious for sure. |
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| binga58 |
Posted on 26-07-2018 04:23
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 339
Joined: 03-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Valid points SaL. We know the great athletes all have that "win at all costs" mentality. Jordan, Tiger Woods, Federer the list goes on. It is just remarkable that Team Sky appear to have 2 Elite riders and 1 in the waiting. I only found out recently that there is no salary cap in pro cycling. That must be fixed going forward, this is not the premier league! |
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| Kiserlovski01 |
Posted on 26-07-2018 07:04
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4056
Joined: 26-04-2012
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hillis91 wrote:
Froome got pushed off his bike by a policeman on his way down the mountain today. Wtf He thought he was a fan just riding down...
Post-tackle footage:
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| Kalach |
Posted on 26-07-2018 07:59
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 880
Joined: 04-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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I got a feeling, that some people will always suspect some rider and will be talking about his consistency in Grand Tour, questioning everything and these kind of things...
If it is not Froome, then it will be somebody else and so on and so forth....Its like never ending story....There is still somebody...
Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
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PCM Velogames Championship - Top Results
* 1st Tour de Suisse ('23)
* 1st Tour de Romandie ('19, '18)
* 1st Tour de Pologne ('20, '19)
* 2nd Tour of California ('19)
* 2nd Tour de Suisse ('18)
* 3rd Tour de France ('23, '21)
* 3rd Giro d’Italia ('22)
* 3rd Vuelta Espana ('23)
* 3rd Autumn Classics ('19, '18)
* 9th Spring Classics ('18)
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 26-07-2018 10:19
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Thing is, that guys like Ronaldo, Federer or Woods were "destined" to be superheroes of their sport, dominating from veyr early age and later had the mentality and hunger to continue to be better and better (apart from Woods and his problems of all sorts but that is another thng). Froome was total nobody on verge of dropping out of professional cycling,you cant compare him to the legends from young age like Jordan, James, Federer, Woods...
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| Kalach |
Posted on 26-07-2018 10:38
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 880
Joined: 04-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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It does not have to be convenient to compare totally different sports. In fact they are not comparable. I know what you want to say about Ronaldo, Federer etc. But maybe in cycling it does not work like that. If you have ability to suffer and right people around you, maybe you can succeed.
Okey, hockey, Zdena Chara, he should have been judo fighter. But here we go he became one of the best defenders in NHL.
Cycling in general seems to be the most complex and scientific oriented sport I can think of right now. Maybe thats the reason why things like this are happening....Because it seems that in cycling such things (to become somebody from nobody) are feasible.
Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
_____________________________________________
PCM Velogames Championship - Top Results
* 1st Tour de Suisse ('23)
* 1st Tour de Romandie ('19, '18)
* 1st Tour de Pologne ('20, '19)
* 2nd Tour of California ('19)
* 2nd Tour de Suisse ('18)
* 3rd Tour de France ('23, '21)
* 3rd Giro d’Italia ('22)
* 3rd Vuelta Espana ('23)
* 3rd Autumn Classics ('19, '18)
* 9th Spring Classics ('18)
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 26-07-2018 10:56
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Well if you can name me examples in cycling where nobody became somebody (and i mean legend with multiple GT wins) in later age and is not proven doper or a shabby person at least...
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 28-11-2024 08:44
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:04
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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Cycling is a purely athletic sport. There is no skill involved. People will reach their physical peak at different ages and it's possible for people who are average to improve with increased training. The best 16-18 year old cyclist may have reached their peak physically while someone who may be a late developer may be very average at 16-18 and then develop at a later age with the right trianing/diet/coaching.
Golf, Tennis, Basketball and Football are skill based games. You tend to learn the "skills" at a younger age when you are developing your motor skills and so those who are the best at a young age will tend to be the best at a later age, depending on how much time and effort they continue to put into it. If you can't kick a ball straight at 16-18 you're are never going to increase your skills to a point where you can be world class.
How many cyclist come late from other sports because their physiology is perfect for cycling? Quite a few. How many athletes go into football or tennis at a later age having not played before to any great level? None. It's impossible.
Therefore any comparison between cycling and other sports in this instance is completely pointless.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:06
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Team Leader
Posts: 7366
Joined: 11-07-2014
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There is so much skill involved in cycling, it's a huge element of the sport.
"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:06
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Well if you can name me examples in cycling where nobody became somebody (and i mean legend with multiple GT wins) in later age and is not proven doper or a shabby person at least...
By shabby person do you mean anyone you don't like so will call a doper as soon as they are mentioned thus making any response to your question completely pointless? 
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:10
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Well it's exactly the same for every swimmer, runner, etc. Russian nobody's suddenly winning Olympic medals is the same as cycling nobody's suddenly winning GT's when they come to Sky.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:13
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2324
Joined: 07-07-2016
PCM$: 17374.00
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Kalach wrote:
It does not have to be convenient to compare totally different sports. In fact they are not comparable. I know what you want to say about Ronaldo, Federer etc. But maybe in cycling it does not work like that. If you have ability to suffer and right people around you, maybe you can succeed.
Okey, hockey, Zdena Chara, he should have been judo fighter. But here we go he became one of the best defenders in NHL.
Cycling in general seems to be the most complex and scientific oriented sport I can think of right now. Maybe thats the reason why things like this are happening....Because it seems that in cycling such things (to become somebody from nobody) are feasible.
I totally agree with your point, btw my question is, one thing is to be a partial time cyclist and turning into a good pro team it can give you a great improvement, but another point is if you are already a pro cyclist from many years, it is supposed that you are close at your best, and ok, like Sky support the fact that research in technology and training methods can give you those "marginal gains" it's true, I don't doubt about, but how can you improve? 3% maybe 7/8% at most? and it is a very high percentage of improvement at top level 7/8%
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:19
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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trekbmc wrote:
There is so much skill involved in cycling, it's a huge element of the sport.
Really. Compared to football, tennis and golf? The skill outweighs the physical element does it? The best bike handler always wins the race does he?
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:25
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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If it's all about kicking the ball, how does this guy not play for Barcelona?
https://www.youtu...hyK5kdQyHY
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 26-07-2018 11:34
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
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Because professional footballers don't get to try a hundred times and only upload the times they get it right
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 26-07-2018 12:00
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Team Leader
Posts: 7366
Joined: 11-07-2014
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ringo182 wrote:
trekbmc wrote:
There is so much skill involved in cycling, it's a huge element of the sport.
Really. Compared to football, tennis and golf? The skill outweighs the physical element does it? The best bike handler always wins the race does he?
You literally just changed your argument, you said there is no skill involved in cycling, but skill is huge, riding down those descents at that speed is not something a lot can do and even amongst pros (f.e. Alaphillipe dropping riders), catching up every time is a huge waste of energy.
Similarly efficiency in the peloton, if you're having to do even slightly more work closing gaps or fighting for position/losing position/starting climbs too far back or dealing with the increase in speed coming out the corners, it all adds up and by the time you're racing against the world's best climbers, you're already at a major disadvantage, I don't doubt his skills are a huge boost for Sagan, taking him up to just that next level.
Source: I'm a weak bike handler, even a little bit of skills training makes a huge difference.
"What done is, is one." - Benji Naesen
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