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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| clamel |
Posted on 24-07-2018 22:59
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1361
Joined: 13-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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You got a double in Gordian Banzer
id no 7947 is labeled as from Kuwait (most be the one to delete)
id no 8026 is probably the correct one (from Suisse and in Roth team)
also Tesfom Okubamariam
both id no 5390 (slightly name change Okbamariam)
and 7989
also I believe Jaime Castrillo in Movistar is from Aragon.
https://movistarte...-castrillo
Edited by clamel on 24-07-2018 23:24
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"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 25-07-2018 14:39
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
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Alaphilippe recovery/recuperation 80?? 81?? 82?? |
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| Yellow Jersey |
Posted on 25-07-2018 16:49
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2809
Joined: 16-04-2013
PCM$: 900.00
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Wtf no
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| Dusen |
Posted on 26-07-2018 06:55
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1173
Joined: 30-07-2013
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Sagan 75 hill, and 79 cobble.
75 hill when Colbrelli is 76 and Matthews has a staggering 78 rating.
79 cobble in a season where he has won Roubaix and Gent Wevelgem.
I think he deserves at least 76 hill, (and a decrease for matthews to 77, he shouldn't be more than one point better) And given his cobble results this season, a 80 rating together with Vanmarcke and Van Avermaet is fair.
I agree on his sprint stats though, it's hard to replicate him in PCM, since he doesn't win flat sprints due to his superior speed often, but instead his position and ability to hit then wind at the right time.
Sagan:
Hill 75 -> 77(76 if you decrease some of the other riders with one)
Cobble -> 80
Alaphillipe:
Downhill 80 -> 81(I mean come on  )
Demare:
Sprint: 80 -> 79 (He is just hasn't delivered and it really is hard to argument for a 80 rating, when he has been beaten by Sagan despite having one of the best lead out's in the world.)
Dumolin:
MO: 79 -> 81 (Would seem that he is about to ride himself into a back to back podium in grand tours, i think that warrants at least a 80 rating)
Some of my takes on the stats |
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| purepasd |
Posted on 26-07-2018 08:09
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Domestique
Posts: 541
Joined: 23-01-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Valgren did the fastest descend on the last two descends on stage 16. He has also shown himself in front of the pepeton on downhills on several occasions. His downhill stat is at 66. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 11:25
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Dusan; Terpstra was the best rider in the cobbled classics this season and Sagan the second and in game Sagan with his current flat, cobble and res is the second/third best rider in the game for the cobbled classics and if it comes to a sprint should also be the best.. In cobbled classics last season is still very relevant as these races are only a few in relation to other types of races so a rider like Naesen who was excellent last year but crocked this season is still good and even GVA who saw a dip in form this season will still be amongst the very best based on last season. Certain riders like GVA and Vanmarcke are a point better on cobble as they are better on them and it's up to them to try and drop Sagan on the cobbles because on the flat Sagan will be better.
Both COlbrelli and especially Matthews are better than him on hill. Are you not forgetting that Matthews finished 4th at LBL and 5th FW this season and last? Also when it comes to sprinting up hill I'd say Matthews-Colbrelli -Sagan in general.
Also the final sprint stats are seeing an overall decrease in general as I've decided to now more drastically reduce Kittel and Cav (they will still be amonbst the best but many riders will now be able to beat them as is the case irl)
Others; Alaphilippe is clearly not going to have a crazy high rec that is for GC contenders will be more like early 70's where he will remain as a stage hunter much like Barguil was at Tour last season. Only difference is that Barguil was a mtn climber with less hill whereas Alaphillippe has decent mtn with high hill and acc
Valgren dh has been upgraded
Dumoulin has been amazing not because he is 2nd overall but to the fact that if this remains like so he has finished 2nd in two GT's when it is supposedly impossible to both ride the Giro and Tour well back to back. His final mtn along with Thomas needs to be considered well and both will be better than 79 for sure.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-07-2018 12:04
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
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Dusen wrote:
Sagan 75 hill, and 79 cobble.
75 hill when Colbrelli is 76 and Matthews has a staggering 78 rating.
79 cobble in a season where he has won Roubaix and Gent Wevelgem.
I think he deserves at least 76 hill, (and a decrease for matthews to 77, he shouldn't be more than one point better) And given his cobble results this season, a 80 rating together with Vanmarcke and Van Avermaet is fair.
I agree on his sprint stats though, it's hard to replicate him in PCM, since he doesn't win flat sprints due to his superior speed often, but instead his position and ability to hit then wind at the right time.
Sagan:
Hill 75 -> 77(76 if you decrease some of the other riders with one)
Cobble -> 80
Sagan is always underrated and cannot replicate his results from real life in Daily databases, dont ask me why, anything i have read here for years does not justify that...
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 27-07-2018 12:10
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-07-2018 12:10
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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Also Terpstra is not best cobbled rider, he just has best team and can utilitize perfect tactics thanks to that Quickstep superiority and then just rides away on flat, he is top flat rider in the world i think, but not vastly superior to Sagan or anyone else on cobbles.
And ofc that Colbrelli or Matthews does better in races like LBL or FW than Sagan, who is having a peak form on cobbled classics, unlike these two, who are peaking for Ardennes...that does not mean they are better hilly riders though.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 19:03
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 12:32
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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All valid points but in fact Sagan has not been underrated over the last few years. The problem was with things like 80 cobble and or 81 flat he was too much of a superman I had him in testing winning 3 monuments in one season MSR, Flanders and Roubaix and other classics. To make him less of a superman we chose to drop a point or two in certain areas, to make him exceptional rather than a superman.
With climbing stats care needs to be made with Sagan as he is one of the best at hill thanks to his super high acc.
Another thing that to be considered and certainly the case of most previous PCM's is that the highest cobbled stat rider quite often doesn't win because the game AI tends to have that rider being the strongest to go on multiple attacks like 60kms from the finish and as they constantly get caught by the other favs who have conserved more energy. This was often the case with Cancellara in earlier PCm's and GVA in the last PCM.
The question is that if Sagan is upgraded to 80 cobble with his other stats that will imo make him the best classics rider rather than shared with others.
If enough members feel that Sagan should have 80 cobble I'm more than willing to put it to a kind of vote but beware the superman effect in game.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 27-07-2018 12:39
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-07-2018 12:41
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
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But i would argue that Sagan is indeed a superman, not just exceptional 
I know it is hard to choose between "wins too much" and "wins less than he should" but i feel like Daily database teams always choose second option. Dont know in PCM 18, but in previous years, Sagan was just worse than in real life, almost with 100% frequency. Never best rider in WT, hardly a top3 in my games, beaten by sprinters in every flat stage and by hilly guys in stages where he often wins in real life and very rarely a winner in cobbled classics.
But maybe it it the time to test him as 76 hill and 80 cobbles? I would even put him 80 sprint, but i know that would be seen as too much.
Btw. i never played with him since some PCM12-13 in Liquigas colours, so i just comment on his result brought by AI and simulation. I know if i would control him, he would win every race
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 13:09
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
But i would argue that Sagan is indeed a superman, not just exceptional
I know it is hard to choose between "wins too much" and "wins less than he should" but i feel like Daily database teams always choose second option. Dont know in PCM 18, but in previous years, Sagan was just worse than in real life, almost with 100% frequency. Never best rider in WT, hardly a top3 in my games, beaten by sprinters in every flat stage and by hilly guys in stages where he often wins in real life and very rarely a winner in cobbled classics.
But maybe it it the time to test him as 76 hill and 80 cobbles? I would even put him 80 sprint, but i know that would be seen as too much.
Btw. i never played with him since some PCM12-13 in Liquigas colours, so i just comment on his result brought by AI and simulation. I know if i would control him, he would win every race
Well he is like a SUPERMAN at times in real life and as we all know has always been the hardest rider to stat.
The issue that you and Dusan are raising are these:
1. cobble should be 80 - something I think is possible.
2. hill should be 76- to be fair he already a point better in hill due to his 83 acc vital for hill riders to make that all important jump or sprint.
3. Sprint- This will be less of a problem because nearly all the better sprinters have been reduced. As said before we really cannot get Sagan to ride for green in the Tour because the game AI doesn't really recognize the fact that green is usually won by the best climbing sprinters which is why Sagan and Matthews don't win it in game. The best solution is to raise them 1 point in game just for the Tour.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 27-07-2018 13:12
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| quadsas |
Posted on 27-07-2018 13:11
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Well Sagan is the greatest cyclist of all time (not debatable), so as far I am concerned, he should simply be overpowered |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 13:14
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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quadsas wrote:
Well Sagan is the greatest cyclist of all time (not debatable), so as far I am concerned, he should simply be overpowered
Looks like the fan club is here (hell I'm even a fan) if you guys want to put your final Sagan stats here I'll raise it with the other stat guys.
PS. he's not looking like a superman in the Tour today though.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 27-07-2018 13:24
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| quadsas |
Posted on 27-07-2018 13:15
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
quadsas wrote:
Well Sagan is the greatest cyclist of all time (not debatable), so as far I am concerned, he should simply be overpowered
Looks like the fan club is here (hell I'm even a fan) if you guys want to put your final Sagan stats here I'll raise it with the other stat guys.
I am not a stat maker and never gave any thought about it, just put my two cents into the argument whether he should win more races or less, and I just think he should win more |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-07-2018 13:26
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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quadsas wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
quadsas wrote:
Well Sagan is the greatest cyclist of all time (not debatable), so as far I am concerned, he should simply be overpowered
Looks like the fan club is here (hell I'm even a fan) if you guys want to put your final Sagan stats here I'll raise it with the other stat guys.
I am not a stat maker and never gave any thought about it, just put my two cents into the argument whether he should win more races or less, and I just think he should win more
well if you're playing PCM and he's not winning as many races as he does irl then there is definitely an issue that needs to be looked at.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 27-07-2018 13:44
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
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Are we really going to discuss stats with people who call Sagan the greatest cyclist of all time?
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 27-07-2018 15:41
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Are we really going to discuss stats with people who call Sagan the greatest cyclist of all time?
Should probably listen to them, cause it's the absolute undeniable truth, if youre using logic |
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| Naskela |
Posted on 27-07-2018 16:09
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Stagiare
Posts: 204
Joined: 31-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Sagan is the best trained cyclist and the best in that sense but his achievements is nothing compared to all-round cyclists which i'd say is way harder than specializing in one discipline. Merckx won ten times the amount of classics than Sagan and not to mention he won all the big three week races several times. But sure Sagan has been the most dominant rider of my lifetime and might end up high on an all time list but no way i'd say best of all time non debatable, that's just stupid.
More than half the peloton when Merckx was riding was not full time professionals and only thing taking away some of his success. But still i'd put him over Sagan.
AG2R La Mondiale / Issy Paris Hand / Le Havre AC
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| jensi251 |
Posted on 27-07-2018 16:09
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Under 23
Posts: 65
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I think the Sagan Fanboys should adjust his stats on their own. Would not like him to win everything in PCS. For me he is strong enough and winning enough. |
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| clamel |
Posted on 27-07-2018 17:02
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1361
Joined: 13-07-2010
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I have a lesser question than this endless chatter of 1 pts up or down between the big shots.
Kittel and Froome similar Downhill stats ?
and I had a look at FCD DB and Kittel was about 5-6 pts lower even if they have very different setup.
Got to come back also on Dumoulin strong sprint stats, FCD have very much lower. As I mentioned before TD had a monster sprint show in the Giro I tested. Beating many of the top sprinters to boot. In my book that didn't feel correct.
Looking at the sprint compare to Geraint Thomas this DB have Dumoulin as a slightly better sprinter. I doubt that.
It is bloody not easy to get stats in order and then all opinions and fan influence too. Guess never enough test time in running different WT races to see how the stats effect results.
Also to keep in mind the knowledge (or not knowledge) on how the riders have in the minus and plus on the stats in each and every race. Those extra up and downs can really fool you when making decisions on raising or lower stats for riders.
I indeed had a lot of questions and surprises on my test runs with Leon40 Giro Italia.
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“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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