Chaves makes a good 79 mtn rider as he still lacks what's needed to actually win a GT BUT he has one advantage over a lot of other mtn climbers and that is his huge acc stat which will enable him to build leads on climbs and in many ways will probably perform like an 80 anyway.
To respond to TMM and Arberg 80 acceleration can't even be matched by Purito, and this stat has increasingly been important over the last few years. In game, Chaves is just as good as Zakarin over a single mountain stage, better over a 3 week span.
I'm really tired of comments made here that only take into account a stat on 13.
Can't just closed thread ? Hear anyway not after people's advice and answered them not.
Everything was much more professional with CrueTrue.
This is bullshit I'm sorry, the way we make stats has been exactly the same as when CrueTrue was coordinating the project - which is very different from what you are saying, people working on the db change, and compared to years ago no one is left. Seems like you don't like interaction from the db team really, considering we argue about everything that is posted here, and if we agree we change stuff.
Please respect our work, everything we do takes a lot more effort than complaining 24/7 and trolling on online forums.
Edited by matt17br on 05-09-2016 14:49
What ACC does Zakarin have? Or rather what is the back up comparision overall between the two? Because that would probably explain the difference, hopefully.
TheManxMissile wrote:
What ACC does Zakarin have? Or rather what is the back up comparision overall between the two? Because that would probably explain the difference, hopefully.
Then i'd say Zakarin is a touch over-rated for 80MO, especially with Chaves on his way to a 2nd GT podium this season. But i'm certain there's plans to correct this already in place
TheManxMissile wrote:
I don't wade in here often but i do have to ask: How does Zakarin have higher MO than Chaves?
Exact, just ridiculous, makes no sense, even in this one Giro they're talking about (on page 18), was Chaves clearly stronger.
Can't just closed thread ? Hear anyway not after people's advice and answered them not.
Everything was much more professional with CrueTrue.
If I belonged to a forum and I didn't like the way it was run (let's just say they had a stats department) I certainly wouldn't waste my time on that forum and I certainly wouldn't waste my time downloading their stats either if I thought they were largely wrong, I'd go somewhere else instead or do my own stats.
You certainly don't seem to have any idea how stats are reached and then evaluated, admittedly we can't get everything right to people's taste but stats are always going to be subjective anyway and even on the stats team 75% of the time we don't initially agree.
Most people have never done stats for a full DB, so believe me this is no walk in the park and you just don't do stats in a few hours as we're talking about hundreds of riders here that constantly need to be looked at. The hardest part of actually doing stats is downgrading riders who haven't performed at a certain level for quite some time and it's easy for a some of these to get missed by us, initially stats take a very long time and then are maintained daily and this can take anywhere from between 15 mins to an hour especially after a monument. Nobody gets to see every part of every race and nobody gets to see every race, so what we don't see we have to workout from the results etc. Effectively stats need to be done everyday otherwise you'll just lose the momentum of the work that has already been done. If you're doing your own stats then yes you can do them however you want but not for a DB that tons of people will use
Most of the members on here give constructive reasons why a rider is too high and another too low, for example the poster about Mollema and Zakarin, whilst I might not agree with the opinion it was still constructive and any post like this will get looked at. For example just the other day a recommendation came in for Felline and that has now been added.
The problem is instead of you giving constructive opinions about how to improve stats, you just prefer to carry on trolling and bitching about the work we put in, this doesn't bother me personally but it certainly reflects badly on the quality of the forum and there is no reason why should have to read it. Your opinions show a lack of respect to the team and site in general, where people freely chose to do something for the benefit of the community.
Not so long ago you were going on about downgrades for Quintana but now that he could win the Vuelta you've gone quiet on that subject. At the moment you're mostly going on about downgrading what you constantly call 'an overrated Contador' for somebody so overrated he's not doing too badly for somebody that's been sick at the Tour and crashed in this Vuelta and just so happened to have won over his career 7/9 GT's something that most riders can only ever dream about doing.
You must surely know by now, that on the team that nobody actually takes any of your opinions on board but I guess you already know that. So just go on making your pointless opinions, knowing full well that we won't ever be seriously listening to them............... but we'll answer you out of human politeness.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 05-09-2016 15:39
I never said that Contador has always been overrated, before doping suspension in 2011 was he not overrated, after are he not the same rider and people overrated him every year to TDF.
People also overrated Quintana every year to TDF, not so much as Contador, because he is a good podium rider.
Edited by Arberg27 on 05-09-2016 16:21
marius434 wrote:
Mollema 78-79
Zakarin 80-81
really? we are rating right now or in the future ....right now (this season ) Mollema is better that Zakarin for sure
Zakarin best result :
2015: won the tour de romandie;4 in tour de pologne and 3rd in artic race of norway
2016: 4 tour de romandie; 4 paris-nice
No big GT results ..... and if you think giro is enough where are some decent climbers but only first 5 places(are GT star) from 5-15 there are only decent climbers no big names (last year Hesjedal for example was 5 .. right now even top 10 places are hard for him..and others like siutsou,atapuma,dupont and visconti are in top 15 )
So giro with a DNF is not enough to make him 80-81 maybe next year with a top 10 in a GT
Is good but not better than bauke or even others 78-79
When it comes to giving out high 70's and 80's stats they're not actually given out lightly, so for example when we proposed 80 for Zakarin it was agreed instantly by everybody on the stats team and I even remember one of the team actually suggesting 81 for him which then we thought was too high and that was quite a few months ago now. Zakarin this season has shown that he's one of the most explosive climbers in the peloton and well worth 80 mtn and he's sustained this level throughout the season when he hasn't crashed.
Riders at this level are never rated for the future and the 81 that you're mentioning is just what I feel he's capable of achieving in the near future BUT until he ever performs at that level he'll never be an 81 and only 2017 now will reveal where he will go with his stats.
JPQM97: Chaves makes a good 79 mtn rider as he still lacks what's needed to actually win a GT BUT he has one advantage over a lot of other mtn climbers and that is his huge acc stat which will enable him to build leads on climbs and in many ways will probably perform like an 80 anyway.
Also as has been mentioned many times by us, riders are usually not drastically increased or decreased because they've had a great or poor race, but we always try to build/change a rider over a period of time, so in the case of Chaves starting with Vuelta 2015 he's gradually been increased to 77 then 78 and most recently to 79 and if we feel at the end of this year's Vuelta he's worth 80 we'll give him 80.
Likewise given the collapse of TVG a rider who not so long ago was justifying his increase to 80 looks like getting decreases but these decreases will be gradual and not drastic, unless of course he comes back guns blazing in 2017.
I understand you want to make your own stats, with your formulas that you need to fix Cyanide DB and that you prefer to wait to races in order to change stats the way you think it's correct.
But in that way the discussion thread of WT stats don't make much sense as you the stat makers watch the WT races. Maybe only suggestion about riders with low profile, who don't have still great results.
I am not criticising or disagreeing but how can we help you in the WT stats? I really think this is an important question. It feels that we can help much more on CT thread because you don't know all the riders and alsot lately this thread is more a combination of explanations about why you decided that some rider should have some stat when someone make a suggestion.
@jpgm We don't mind getting suggestions for any kind of rider really, it just gets frustrating when we repeat the same things to the same people, that then even go on to criticise us in the most childish of the ways. Simple as that.
Guys, guys. The whole stats discussion is useless for top riders. I think if there's one thing I've learned in 5 year here, it's that. For CT riders it's necessary as knowledge is very regional. But everybody will always have their own opinions on the top guys, and they will almost always conflict with somebody else's.
Bottom line is that everyone has a DB editor. If you don't like a stat or a few, that's fine. Change it yourself. it takes 3 seconds. These stats are the DB team's opinion, and they may not match yours. That's fine. I know they often don't match mine. So take the DB and change it yourself.
Daily gives us a great base for stats and a good matrix, and then you can do whatever the hell you want with it. I don't think Zakarin deserves 80 either, but what's the point in complaining about one thing when you can literally change it yourself and never have to worry what everybody else thinks.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
Btw I saw I got a dislike, just to be clear it wasn't aiming to you jp but to 24/7 trolls like Arberg. Your inputs are on the other hand totally appreciated.
TheManxMissile wrote:
I don't wade in here often but i do have to ask: How does Zakarin have higher MO than Chaves?
I have to agree that this is a bit off, Chaves has to be at least the same, if not better.
Zakarin has best results top5-8 in WT stage races, cant match Chaves succes in mountains at all. Zakarin crashed at Giro, but he aint three weeks guy, i doubt he could finish higher than Chaves there, i very much doubt it.
Acceleration is not an excuse for such a thing like Chaves being lower than Zakarin in mountain stat, which is the most important stat for climbing by a miles... (sorry matt, but from my playing of PCM 15-16 i have not seen acceleration being so important like you are suggesting). Zakarin is GT podium guy...which he is not in reality.
baseballlover312 wrote:
Guys, guys. The whole stats discussion is useless for top riders. I think if there's one thing I've learned in 5 year here, it's that. For CT riders it's necessary as knowledge is very regional. But everybody will always have their own opinions on the top guys, and they will almost always conflict with somebody else's.
Bottom line is that everyone has a DB editor. If you don't like a stat or a few, that's fine. Change it yourself. it takes 3 seconds. These stats are the DB team's opinion, and they may not match yours. That's fine. I know they often don't match mine. So take the DB and change it yourself.
Daily gives us a great base for stats and a good matrix, and then you can do whatever the hell you want with it. I don't think Zakarin deserves 80 either, but what's the point in complaining about one thing when you can literally change it yourself and never have to worry what everybody else thinks.
Acceleration is not an excuse for such a thing like Chaves being lower than Zakarin in mountain stat, which is the most important stat for climbing by a miles... (sorry matt, but from my playing of PCM 15-16 i have not seen acceleration being so important like you are suggesting).
Pretty sure you play the Man-Game though, don't you think there is a reason why Schleck is so much better than Madrazo? Schleck is worse or basically the same in basically everything and has the same mountain stat as Madrazo, but who wins GTs head 2 head is always the Luxembourg rider. Why? He has 7 acceleration points more. Or take Denifl or Tenorio, or even Gesink which used to be god in past PCM versions before 14, why do you think they sucks? Because the effect of Acceleration changed and it's much much more importan.
Chaves will likely move to 80 mountain after la Vuelta, but that will make him seem like a much better rider than Zakarin. I think you guys just underestimate the effect of backups.
I agree that it (ACC) had huge impact in PCM14, a bit less in PCM15, but in PCM16 i am not sure it has large effect comparded to the main stat and especially mountain.
And apart from that. dont want me to start on the backup stats in pro cycling manager series...these are usually just gimmick stats, some of them even not functional in certain editions. But never ever more important than main stat and especially daily form. Daily form is second most important stat in the game now and you cant influence it...
Exactly, daily form is over important, and it will act the same way in both main and backup stats, so if Chaves has a slightly better day than Zakarin he'll be just as good as him in mountain. If the opposite happens, however, it will take some real good form to Zakarin to equal Chaves' acceleration.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
