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Rio Olympic Games Cycling 2016
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 19:45
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SSJ2Luigi wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
SSJ2Luigi wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
One point I did think about. Why don't all the members of the winning team get a medal? Are there any other team events where only one person gets a medal?
because there is no winning team, it's an individual sport. if it was a real team sport then there would team sport like actions such as mid race replacements
But you can't win a race without your team. Teams lead riders up mountains, they lead out sprinters, chase down breakaway's, collect drinks and pace riders back to the peloton if they crash.
I know only one rider wins, but the team gets them there. I know in normal circumstances of cycling only the individual gets credit, world champs for example, But this is the Olympics. It's a team event so the team should get medals.
if you start giving medals to cyclist who helped getting the win for another rider within a team then you also need to give medals to cylist from other nations that helped that nation medals for getting them there (e.g HTC riders helping Cavendish). then why shouldn't the trainers and staff of the national teams also get medals because they helped riders getting ready, then why shouldn't the staff of normal teams get medals because they helped riders getting ready. it's an endless loop wihich can be traced back to gymnastics coach people had in grade school.
I think your getting a bit carried away there. Of course giving out medals to other nations, trainers and car drivers would be ridiclous. Just like it would be in any other sport.
But a player in the hockey squad who doesn't play a single minute will get a medal while a rider in the Belgium squad who rode over 200k and helped to win the medal will get nothing.
Team Sport should equal Team Medals. |
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 19:52
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Why not have 9 Tour trophies for each Sky rider then? Or 9 Giro trophies for Astana and so on. This is how cycling works. It might be a team sport, but at the end of the day it's the individual who takes all the glory.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 20:00
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alexkr00 wrote:
Why not have 9 Tour trophies for each Sky rider then? Or 9 Giro trophies for Astana and so on. This is how cycling works. It might be a team sport, but at the end of the day it's the individual who takes all the glory.
This is an Olympic event. Not a UCI or any other form of normal cycling event.
I'm just saying it would be nice for the whole team to get a medal like in every other team sport at the Olympics. Why is cycling treated differently? |
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 08-08-2016 20:03
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giving the whole cycling team medals would be different from every other team sport event because they move away from what's is standard at their world cups. every player that played in any match during the hockey tournament for example get's a medal in the olympics and the world cups. why should cycling be treated differently by changing what normally happens
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 20:09
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ringo182 wrote:
alexkr00 wrote:
Why not have 9 Tour trophies for each Sky rider then? Or 9 Giro trophies for Astana and so on. This is how cycling works. It might be a team sport, but at the end of the day it's the individual who takes all the glory.
This is an Olympic event. Not a UCI or any other form of normal cycling event.
I'm just saying it would be nice for the whole team to get a medal like in every other team sport at the Olympics. Why is cycling treated differently?
What? So the rules of cycling are different depending on who hosts the event? What?
In team sports it's the combined result that matters, not just the result of the best player.
A football game is decided by how many goals each team scored, not by how many goals a team's best player scored. In swimming or athletic relays, you cumulate the time of all the members of the team, not just the best one. In gymnastics you have the score for all 3 (or how many are on each apparatus (not sure if that's the best word)) not just the best one and so on.
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 20:11
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In every other team sport it's the team that wins, not the individual that wins.
It would be similar to saying that the whole Kenya team should win a medal if they acted as pacemakers if their teammate won the marathon.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 20:13
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SSJ2Luigi wrote:
giving the whole cycling team medals would be different from every other team sport event because they move away from what's is standard at their world cups. every player that played in any match during the hockey tournament for example get's a medal in the olympics and the world cups. why should cycling be treated differently by changing what normally happens
The football tournament is U23. Where else is football played as U23? Thatsnot wwhat normally happens.
I've said already that I'm aware it isn't normally the done thing. But it's the Olympics. It's not a normal cycling event. And every other team sport at the Olympics gives out medals to the team. The normal cycling g bodies have no say over the handing out of medals the IOC does. Why does it treat cycling differently to other team sports? |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 20:19
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sammyt93 wrote:
In every other team sport it's the team that wins, not the individual that wins.
It would be similar to saying that the whole Kenya team should win a medal if they acted as pacemakers if their teammate won the marathon.
That's a good point. And the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point. 
Cycling is an actual team sport but long distance running is the closest thing I suppose.
I just think it would be nice for teammates to get something for the work they do. |
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 08-08-2016 20:49
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ringo182 wrote:
the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point.
because it's not a team sport isn't a valid point? 
one rider excellence awarding field filling riders isn't a valid point
why should Van Avermaet winning should give Pauwels, Gilbert, De Plus and Wellens gold despite two not finishing and despite Froome, Thomas and Yates collectively finishing ahead of Pauwels and Gilbert? (which in normal team classifications would give the advantage to Froome/Thomas/Yates) |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 21:03
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SSJ2Luigi wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point.
because it's not a team sport isn't a valid point?
one rider excellence awarding field filling riders isn't a valid point
why should Van Avermaet winning should give Pauwels, Gilbert, De Plus and Wellens gold despite two not finishing and despite Froome, Thomas and Yates collectively finishing ahead of Pauwels and Gilbert? (which in normal team classifications would give the advantage to Froome/Thomas/Yates)
It is a team sport. Every single cycling race has teams. No rider would win any race without a team.
You main point throughout was its not what is normally done in cycling. This isn't a normal race. It's an Olympic event.
Yes, because unless Belgium's tactic was to have 5 individuals all racing independently of each other then those 4 would have all helped during the first 200 or so k. The whole race wasn't the last climb and decent when GVAmade his move. |
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| Mateo4 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 21:18
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ringo182 wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
In every other team sport it's the team that wins, not the individual that wins.
It would be similar to saying that the whole Kenya team should win a medal if they acted as pacemakers if their teammate won the marathon.
That's a good point. And the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point.
Cycling is an actual team sport but long distance running is the closest thing I suppose.
I just think it would be nice for teammates to get something for the work they do.
You just don't understand that cycling ISN'T a team sport. It is an individual sport as long as only individual results matter. As in every other sport where individual results matter, only those are taken into account.
Nice example, on the same principe, is marathon as sammyt wrote, there are more runners f.ex. from Kenya but only the one who wins is a winner. The fact the riders are normally collaborating doesn't make it a team sport, that's just how cycling work because the other individuals a)are normally paid from normal teams to give up of their own results, or b)they give up (with a bit of nationalism)with their own will of their own result so that the country where they are from gets better succes. Look also at Formula 1, where are also more(2) riders riding and paid by one team, but if one wins, he wins, not the teams.
Well, they don't even ALWAYS collaborate and don't ride in a team spirit. The same way they can collaborate in cycling, they can in marathons.
And there is no difference between ASO events and Olympics (which are on same principe as World championships), they still ride for their own, just the reason of giving up of their own ambitions in exchange of working for someone else is different. |
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| Mateo4 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 21:21
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You have the teams classification in GT, that's where the teams performance matthers and where teams should be awarded. |
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| Wilier |
Posted on 08-08-2016 21:22
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Mateo4 wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
In every other team sport it's the team that wins, not the individual that wins.
It would be similar to saying that the whole Kenya team should win a medal if they acted as pacemakers if their teammate won the marathon.
That's a good point. And the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point.
Cycling is an actual team sport but long distance running is the closest thing I suppose.
I just think it would be nice for teammates to get something for the work they do.
You just don't understand that cycling ISN'T a team sport. It is an individual sport as long as only individual results matter. As in every other sport where individual results matter, only those are taken into account.
Nice example, on the same principe, is marathon as sammyt wrote, there are more runners f.ex. from Kenya but only the one who wins is a winner. The fact the riders are normally collaborating doesn't make it a team sport, that's just how cycling work because the other individuals a)are normally paid from normal teams to give up of their own results, or b)they give up (with a bit of nationalism)with their own will of their own result so that the country where they are from gets better succes. Look also at Formula 1, where are also more(2) riders riding and paid by one team, but if one wins, he wins, not the teams.
Well, they don't even ALWAYS collaborate and don't ride in a team spirit. The same way they can collaborate in cycling, they can in marathons.
And there is no difference between ASO events and Olympics ( which are on same principe as World championships), they still ride for their own, just the reason of giving up of their own ambitions in exchange of working for someone else is different.
Then what is the definition of a team sport, according to you? |
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 08-08-2016 21:56
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Wilier wrote:
Mateo4 wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
In every other team sport it's the team that wins, not the individual that wins.
It would be similar to saying that the whole Kenya team should win a medal if they acted as pacemakers if their teammate won the marathon.
That's a good point. And the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point.
Cycling is an actual team sport but long distance running is the closest thing I suppose.
I just think it would be nice for teammates to get something for the work they do.
You just don't understand that cycling ISN'T a team sport. It is an individual sport as long as only individual results matter. As in every other sport where individual results matter, only those are taken into account.
Nice example, on the same principe, is marathon as sammyt wrote, there are more runners f.ex. from Kenya but only the one who wins is a winner. The fact the riders are normally collaborating doesn't make it a team sport, that's just how cycling work because the other individuals a)are normally paid from normal teams to give up of their own results, or b)they give up (with a bit of nationalism)with their own will of their own result so that the country where they are from gets better succes. Look also at Formula 1, where are also more(2) riders riding and paid by one team, but if one wins, he wins, not the teams.
Well, they don't even ALWAYS collaborate and don't ride in a team spirit. The same way they can collaborate in cycling, they can in marathons.
And there is no difference between ASO events and Olympics ( which are on same principe as World championships), they still ride for their own, just the reason of giving up of their own ambitions in exchange of working for someone else is different.
Then what is the definition of a team sport, according to you?
I agree with you Mateo with the marathon example.
But you simply cannot say cycling is not a team sport. Instead of the whole teams playing together to win together, the whole team works together to get one of them to win. Different method but still a team sport.
It's like chess. The pawns are useless on their own bit as part of the team sacrifice themselves to help the team win and can be just as important as other pieces, just like domestiques. |
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 08-08-2016 22:22
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I'm caring way to much about this discussion at tis point, last I'm able to bring in, since I don't like repeating the same thing seven times over
It's like chess. The pawns are useless on their own bit as part of the team sacrifice themselves to help the team win and can be just as important as other pieces, just like domestiques.
except that in chess, there are equal amount of pawns while in cycling, some teams have many while some other teams have none. if it really was a team sport then if would be an unfair teamsport.
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| OZrocker |
Posted on 09-08-2016 07:56
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There's only one other thing that I have to add because Luigi, Mateo and Sammyt have already explained the situation thoroughly enough already.
Cycling is played like a team sport, but the riders are certainly competing for individual glory. If you're giving medals to everyone on a team, what happens if Belgium came first and third? Do you give every member of the team a gold and a bronze too? Or does every Belgian rider just get the gold medal (in which case, do the bronze medals go to the team whose rider finished fourth overall)?
Either way, my point is that this can't ever happen in team sports. The reason why all the members of a team get medals is that it is simply not possible for one of them to win and another to finish in a different position.
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| Mateo4 |
Posted on 09-08-2016 12:18
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Wilier wrote:
Mateo4 wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
sammyt93 wrote:
In every other team sport it's the team that wins, not the individual that wins.
It would be similar to saying that the whole Kenya team should win a medal if they acted as pacemakers if their teammate won the marathon.
That's a good point. And the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point.
Cycling is an actual team sport but long distance running is the closest thing I suppose.
I just think it would be nice for teammates to get something for the work they do.
You just don't understand that cycling ISN'T a team sport. It is an individual sport as long as only individual results matter. As in every other sport where individual results matter, only those are taken into account.
Nice example, on the same principe, is marathon as sammyt wrote, there are more runners f.ex. from Kenya but only the one who wins is a winner. The fact the riders are normally collaborating doesn't make it a team sport, that's just how cycling work because the other individuals a)are normally paid from normal teams to give up of their own results, or b)they give up (with a bit of nationalism)with their own will of their own result so that the country where they are from gets better succes. Look also at Formula 1, where are also more(2) riders riding and paid by one team, but if one wins, he wins, not the teams.
Well, they don't even ALWAYS collaborate and don't ride in a team spirit. The same way they can collaborate in cycling, they can in marathons.
And there is no difference between ASO events and Olympics ( which are on same principe as World championships), they still ride for their own, just the reason of giving up of their own ambitions in exchange of working for someone else is different.
Then what is the definition of a team sport, according to you?
Just as I said, the individual results of one rider not of a whole team are taken, for the results only performance of one rider matters, they ask about the unique rider's result. The other riders can only help the one rider so he himself achieves better result. The other riders help the one rider, but so does sports director or a soigneur... |
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| Mateo4 |
Posted on 09-08-2016 12:22
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ringo182 wrote:
SSJ2Luigi wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
the first one that actually offers a valid point against my point.
because it's not a team sport isn't a valid point?
one rider excellence awarding field filling riders isn't a valid point
why should Van Avermaet winning should give Pauwels, Gilbert, De Plus and Wellens gold despite two not finishing and despite Froome, Thomas and Yates collectively finishing ahead of Pauwels and Gilbert? (which in normal team classifications would give the advantage to Froome/Thomas/Yates)
It is a team sport. Every single cycling race has teams. No rider would win any race without a team.
That clearly isn't true as you are talking especially about Olympics where there are (this year 24) riders who are riding solo and who can win. |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 09-08-2016 12:28
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Looks like Martin won't really contest here for the TT...he told that he's not at his best, especially with the long-term knee injury that made him suffer since a long before the Tour...interesting also that he told in all honest that he's not World class at the moment, but already looking forward to Tokyo 2020...
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 09-08-2016 12:30
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I guess you right. Although I still maintain that cycling at the professional level is a team sport.
The fact the Olympic race had individuals competing shows that it is different to normal races as I had argued.
Has a rider ever won the world champs/Olympics as a solo competitor? |
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