This is the thread for stat discussions on lower level riders in the world of cycling.
We decided to split the discussions into 2 pieces now. In this discussion we want to rise the attention on lower level riders.
Why? In the heated discussions about the top class of cycling we feel that the mostly very valuable hints for cyclist on continental level often fall behind. This thread should help us (especially the CT-statmakers kodman & me) to focus on your suggestions. It also points at the chance of getting even more input of you guys via this, in a way that you recognize that we are taking every grounded opinion happily into account.
What? The two of us base CT-statmaking on every single professional race in the world of cycling (sometimes even amateur races, criterias or CX). It´s kind of a tough ask to follow the results of every race, but we make sure that no race falls under the table. Still we can´t go as deep into every race as you might do (because of regional issues, connections, the special following of a team,...) for some of these. That´s where your chance in optimizing our database can take place:
How? You give us suggestions for riders performing over or under our stated values in the db. We will check them in comparasation of how we see these guys, so that we improve the stating of less known riders.
What you also might have recognized that we over the last month changed the Free Agents a little. Taking out riders we recognize that they´re riding not on a professional level anymore, and therefore replace them with late kickstarters or new guys. As part of this we also went a little into Junior/U23 Cycling and included the biggest prospects. Both the suggestion of riders to take out and new guys to add is appreciated (though we´ve done a lot of that for the next release, so I would like you to start with that after it).
Spoiler
A few positive examples of great contributing to our DB:
- Maddox & Clamels hints about the specialisation of Danish CT cyclists
- sgdannys knowledge for his Next Generation DB
- Jorge14s input on Portuguese riders & constant hinting on "overperforming"riders
- pittalns suggestion & discussion on U23 riders from Norway
Note that the Discussion Rules are the same as the ones stated in the General Stats Discussion
If there are questions left, feel free to contact me via PM. Croatia14, for PCM.daily's Database Team
Hey Croatia thanks for put my name on the list, do you want my new cdb?
All the CT updated and constantly updates day by day because of the races, if you want i can post them here, some of the others contributors could see them too, what you think?
Jorge14 wrote:
Hey Croatia thanks for put my name on the list, do you want my new cdb?
All the CT updated and constantly updates day by day because of the races, if you want i can post them here, some of the others contributors could see them too, what you think?
I'd love to see your cdb Jorge, it's always good to get more opinions on CT stats.
BTW thanks Croatia for making this thread, as it's been getting harder (but not impossible ) to find suggestions for CT stats in the former stats discussion thread.
I agree with kodman! It can only be helpful to get more opinions.
To the format: Posting it as a cdb would be good, but it would be very hard to look through all teams to find minor changes. A customer-friendly style would be if you could just post your suggestions in the form of a list here, so that it´s much easier for us to implement.
I'm avaiable for suggestions of stats for riders that are part of portuguese teams. Tomorrow starts Volta a Portugal, and it will be covered in TV in Portugal, so I think it would help to decide some stats of riders of the teams that participate there.
If you accept my help, i just want to know how do you prefer them to be posted here. Example: listing riders stats like this, 70-Mountains, Hills-71 ,etc...? Or do you prefer other way?
jpgm97 wrote:
I'm avaiable for suggestions of stats for riders that are part of portuguese teams. Tomorrow starts Volta a Portugal, and it will be covered in TV in Portugal, so I think it would help to decide some stats of riders of the teams that participate there.
If you accept my help, i just want to know how do you prefer them to be posted here. Example: listing riders stats like this, 70-Mountains, Hills-71 ,etc...? Or do you prefer other way?
great to hear! both posting tendencies or stats here in forms of lists would help us
jpgm97 wrote:
I'm avaiable for suggestions of stats for riders that are part of portuguese teams. Tomorrow starts Volta a Portugal, and it will be covered in TV in Portugal, so I think it would help to decide some stats of riders of the teams that participate there.
If you accept my help, i just want to know how do you prefer them to be posted here. Example: listing riders stats like this, 70-Mountains, Hills-71 ,etc...? Or do you prefer other way?
great to hear! both posting tendencies or stats here in forms of lists would help us
So i would start today with some.
Rafael Reis i think he should have 72TT and Prologue, (he has won almost all TT in Portugal this year and, even beating Gustavo Veloso, even thought they are competing in the same team, and also won many competions, that don't appear in Pro Cycling Stats), 70 flat, at least 65 Mountains(maybe he can do better than that, but I think he didn't had opportunity to show it), and also 68 hills(because he did 8th on Vuelta a Castilla y Leon) and at least 67 endurance and 68 resistance.
On Gustavo Veloso, i would sugest he having 70 resistance(because he is very good on long time-trials, and showed it on the two last Voltas a Portugal.
Rinaldo Nocentini is is very overrated on the DB, because he isn't performing very well to deserve that stats. He shouldn't have more than 70 on Mountains, and 71 on Hills. Also I would lower his accelaration to 72, endurance to 68 and resistance to 69, plain to 68, and recovery to 70.
Also Rui Sousa is the leader of is team, not Daniel Silva, so he should have 70 mountains, 74 barouder(he always attack on the queen stage of Volta a Portugal), 66 Prologue and 69TT(he improved a lot the last years), also his endurance and resistance should 68.
For now it's this, because, I prefer to wait to see how the riders will perform in Volta a Portugal, which starts tomorrow. So i will be providing feedback.
Edited by jpgm97 on 27-07-2016 01:10
I definitely have some insights on American riders. I'll give some insights after the Tour of Utah cause a lot of American CT youngsters will peak there with USAPCC gone.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
@jpgm97: implemented all the tendencies you gave, not exactly stating the stats like yours but in that direction. I´ve got a couple of questions left:
1. Do you know why Reis was that bad in Algarve's TT? Did he crash or something like that?
2. Why is Rui Sousa the captain when Daniel Silva scores the better (international) results?
@bbl: great! I think we can have some good discussions here due to the amount of american members here and their love to hype riders...
Croatia14 wrote: @jpgm97: implemented all the tendencies you gave, not exactly stating the stats like yours but in that direction. I´ve got a couple of questions left:
1. Do you know why Reis was that bad in Algarve's TT? Did he crash or something like that?
2. Why is Rui Sousa the captain when Daniel Silva scores the better (international) results?
@bbl: great! I think we can have some good discussions here due to the amount of american members here and their love to hype riders...
1 Sadly there was no tv coverage of Algarve, so I don't know if he crashed or not. But also maybe he wan't on his best shape, because he lost many time to many riders that he beat in other races. Even thought I think it's because he wasn't fighing for either for the stage or the GC(he isn't a good climber, for now, and the leader Veloso injured before the race, and the second best climber of the team António Carvalho, DNF stage 2).
Only know that last year in Volta a Portugal Prologue he punctered and had to change to a normal bike, because his former team didn't have more TT bikes, and lost many time. This year Reis and his team 2016 W52-FC Porto-Porto Canal are leading the Portugal ranking(the individual and the teams ranking), which includes only portuguese races .Today is the prologue, and I will see how he perform(he is the favourite to win, alongside Veloso, Stefan Schumacher and William Clarke.
But it is shame that a race with so many WT teams hasn't any coverage, as we have only some fast highlights. So I can't give you an accurate answer about that. I hope that will change next year.
2 It's because Rui Sousa has good results in the main race of Portugal(Volta a Portugal). Now he mainly focus on that race, to try win it. He has done many podiums, and almost won it in 2014, in which he lost to Veloso. If there weren't time trials he could have won it with the difference he did on the mountain stage, which he he won with some margin (and only at 39 he did his better TT ever). And Daniel Silva best result was 4th on that race, so he works mainly for Rui.
Maybe Rui and other GC riders could do better results on races outside of our country if our teams could pay wages in time and also if they haven't to wait until the Volta ends, to receive the prizes, to pay their budget, and try to find sponsors.
that´s a great and detailed input, thank you - I am looking forward to your "coverage" of the Volta a Portugal!
to 1) Reis got an overall upgrade (so far with 71 TT/PRL & back-up stats slightly worse than you proposed, but if he dominates on his assumed peak these stats could go up again), guys like Veloso and Nocentini got their stats improved/decreased in the directions you stated.
to 2) I will put Sousa and Silva on a similar level to let the game choose how to deal with them. If it chooses Silva for international races and Sousa for Portugal that could be a perfect fit.
For today stage I would not suggest any change of backup stats yet, for I prefer to wait some stages.
As expected Rafael Reis won the prologue. The changes I propose are based on Rafael Reis stats.
The course wasn't easy, even though it was only 3,6km long. Most of it was flat, one part had cobbles, there are is an dowhill near the mid but last 600m were uphill, and seen to last forever.
Jóni Brandão who desearves something around 70 in Prologue.. Veloso had an puncture, so he had change to a normal bike, but even still he lost only 11 seconds to Reis. So it fells like he could do better than Jóni or even winning the stage. Probably increasing is prologue 71 would be a good idea.
José Gonçalves also did a good stage, considering he isn't in his best shape, because he is there to prepare the Vuelta. So i would suggest also a 71 in Prologue.
Daniel Mestre and Filipe Cardoso should also shoud be improved to 69 Prologue.
William Clarke lost 4 seconds to Reis, but i think is prologue i too high in the game. Maybe 73 or 72, even thought maybe 72 is too low.
From now I will be less detailed, as there are many riders.
Prologue:
Thomas Scully-70
García de Mateos, João Marcelo Gaspar,Nocentini, Bruno Pires, Stefan Schumacher, Jesús Ezquerra, -69
Fraporti, Gavazzi, Bruno Silva, De Segovia, César Fonte, António Carvalho, Hugo Sabido, Daniel Silva, João Benta and Rafael Silva-68
David Rodrigues, Poulhiés, Pasqualon, Henrique Casemiro, Eduard Prades, Mario González, Bagues, Pelizotti, Stalnov, Phelan, Garikoitz Bravo, Oscar Rodríguez-Euskadi(he isn't in game), Ricardo Mestre. Antonio Molina, Rui Vinhas, David Belda, Alejandro Marque, Gillaume de Almeida, Samuel Caldeira, Benjamin Thomas, Frederico Figueiredo, Amirail, Txoperena, Hernãni Broco and Amaro Antunes-67.
I will try to evaluate the other ones, and I'will post when I have more time.
Some stats maybe wrong(most from riders of non portuguese teams, that I don't watch often), but is the evaluation I could do here, for what they showed up today, and other races they participated here.
Tomorrow I will post more. I have aldredy the idea of some other stats changes to suggest, but i prefer to wait to see how some riders perform.
Edited by jpgm97 on 28-07-2016 10:25
jpgm you are give too much on certain riders because of only one result, Ezquerra, Joao Gaspar, Almeida are no way to be that great, you cand judge and give that riders a 69 only because they finish Top10/15 in a prologue.
Also Sousa only performs great on Volta because is 40 and is the main goal of the season, in the other races he helps and attack more and gave liberty to the young guys show their capacity and potential like Frederico Figueiredo, Davide Rodrigues and Daniel Silva
My CDB is here, feel free too look and gave opinions (ONE ADVICE I ONLY CHANGE THE STATS OF ALL THE CT TEAMS IN THE PRO CT I STILL EDIT GUYS): https://www.sends...ile/qfxeer
Croatia14 wrote:
to 2) I will put Sousa and Silva on a similar level to let the game choose how to deal with them. If it chooses Silva for international races and Sousa for Portugal that could be a perfect fit.
Put Volta ao Portugal as favorite race for Silva. That will improve the chance of him ending up there as leader.
As always I might be in deep water BUT
that little tiny new dutch lad. Antwan Tolhoek
60 mtn, 63 DH, acc - spr 60-60 kind of light,
ok for hills maybe 68.
The bloke managed to WIN KoM jersey in Suisse and followed it up with a 13th in KoM for Tour of Austria- He did some aggressive riding in Norway earlier.
Obviously he is in a hell of a form this summer, but if not already adjusted a little up on key stats. It should be about time IMHO.
Notice I still only got the DB v2, not the EP, so perhaps he got "fixed" in that
Croatia14 wrote:
to 2) I will put Sousa and Silva on a similar level to let the game choose how to deal with them. If it chooses Silva for international races and Sousa for Portugal that could be a perfect fit.
Put Volta ao Portugal as favorite race for Silva. That will improve the chance of him ending up there as leader.
Daniel Silva was never the leader of his team in Volta a Portugal...
Jorge14 wrote:
jpgm you are give too much on certain riders because of only one result, Ezquerra, Joao Gaspar, Almeida are no way to be that great, you cand judge and give that riders a 69 only because they finish Top10/15 in a prologue.
Also Sousa only performs great on Volta because is 40 and is the main goal of the season, in the other races he helps and attack more and gave liberty to the young guys show their capacity and potential like Frederico Figueiredo, Davide Rodrigues and Daniel Silva
My CDB is here, feel free too look and gave opinions (ONE ADVICE I ONLY CHANGE THE STATS OF ALL THE CT TEAMS IN THE PRO CT I STILL EDIT GUYS): https://www.sends...ile/qfxeer
I give the stats more based on their results today, and other races in Portugal this year. Also some riders peak for the Volta a Portugal(special mention to the portuguese teams), so maybe they have better results, and others only show their talent in a determined race. Would someone ever think that Gonçalves had that talent until last year? Also that Primoz Roglic could win a TT in the Giro? And giving an 69 or a 67 in prologue is a relative low stat. Maybe some riders that performed well today in a TT with more km, would do bad performances.But some riders i don't know very well. So if you disagree with some of mine suggestions, you can say yours. Also will take a look at your DB.
Rui Sousa, since I remember, main focus was Volta Portugal for more than 10 years, like the leaders of every portuguese team. Not all leaders can compete at high level all season. Even some Grand Tours riders can't. But Cyanide hasn't created an attribute for that, so I think.
PS: Your DB in game appear with default stats, at least for me. I can read it with Lachi's Editor, but that makes harder to read all the stats.
Edited by jpgm97 on 28-07-2016 10:44
@jpgm97 His db also has default stats for me as well in game, but I don't think that's his fault, I think that's just a fault of the game itself. I've had the same problem myself when I check my edits in game too.
I'll give some more feedback in a bit, just have to go through the db via Fast Editor.
Edit: Forgot to mention that it happens when you try to make copies of a cdb file, the game doesn't like that for some reason
clamel wrote:
As always I might be in deep water BUT
that little tiny new dutch lad. Antwan Tolhoek
60 mtn, 63 DH, acc - spr 60-60 kind of light,
ok for hills maybe 68.
The bloke managed to WIN KoM jersey in Suisse and followed it up with a 13th in KoM for Tour of Austria- He did some aggressive riding in Norway earlier.
Obviously he is in a hell of a form this summer, but if not already adjusted a little up on key stats. It should be about time IMHO.
Notice I still only got the DB v2, not the EP, so perhaps he got "fixed" in that
The attributes you suggested are exactly the sames one as the latest DB uploaded here.
But i think 60 Mountains is low. Maybe something around 65/66. Maybe 66. Because with 60 Mountains, he would naver have these results.
PS: Jorge14(are you portuguese?), even though I can't see your DB in game, I used Lachi's Editor to see some stats, but it's more hard to see them like that. Some riders of portuguese team that I know better, have very low stats, like Alarcón, Vinhas, who are having a good season. Meanwhile, Nocentini, has had a little downgrade in your DB, but he is still a beast. If in real life cycling he could perform like that, he would won every competion of portuguese calendar, with exception of Volta ao Algarve. Even if he could win Volta a Portugal, these stats would be very high.
Edited by jpgm97 on 28-07-2016 11:10
@clamel: he indeed already got a massive change in stats already, but thx for noticing
@jorge: cdb helps us with 0% - we can´t constantly check whole .cdbs - Lists with the most valuable updates would be helpful instead.
@jpgm: tendencies look good; for sure we won´t base their stats only on this prologue though - Key is to find the riders that massively over/underperformed in comparison to their stats. Great hint with Cesar Velosos puncture though.
) to find suggestions for CT stats in the former stats discussion thread.
