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2016 Planning: General Ideas
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 22-11-2015 15:24
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It's only a +3 or -3 from a constant fitness level though (guessing 90/100?) so the impact of daily form isn't massive. It's a part of cycling so to maintain realism it should be there in my opinion. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 22-11-2015 15:35
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FroomeDog99 wrote:
It's only a +3 or -3 from a constant fitness level though (guessing 90/100?) so the impact of daily form isn't massive. It's a part of cycling so to maintain realism it should be there in my opinion.
You probably missed some TT reports this year. 
The impact of daily form there was ridiculous in PCM14, dont know about next edition.
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 22-11-2015 15:42
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
FroomeDog99 wrote:
It's only a +3 or -3 from a constant fitness level though (guessing 90/100?) so the impact of daily form isn't massive. It's a part of cycling so to maintain realism it should be there in my opinion.
You probably missed some TT reports this year.
The impact of daily form there was ridiculous in PCM14, dont know about next edition.
There are other factors that affect a TT though such as wind direction and strength of wind which can drastically change from the start to finish of a TT. Daily form has an impact but I actually don't believe it's big enough for someone like Gastauer to finish +17 on Coppel in a TT alone like in Tasmania. |
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 22-11-2015 15:44
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If we did let stagiare teams ride C2/C2HC how would that effect rankings points? would we just skip over them in the results list or do they take away points that CT team could otherwise score?
If a rider from one of these teams finished second does he score the points for second or does the rider in third but second from a CT team score those points?
Also I'm generally against this idea as I don't like the idea that a rider from a stagiare team could influence the result in what for me is a rankings points race. Say for example there is a 2 man break that we are chasing down and one of the guys in it is from a stagiare team and one is from a team I am close to in the standings, if the stagiare rider is doing the main pulling and keeps them away but the chasing rider would have caught the rider from his rival team if it wasn't for the stagiare then that's harsh on the chasing team as he's lost ranking points against his rival when he would have caught and maybe dropped or outsprinted his rider and made a gain otherwise.
However if they have their own races and competitions which run parallel to the MG and don't slow down the game like the miniMG and the Crits series from a couple of years ago then I don't see it being a problem.
TL:DR
I really don't want them in C2/C2HC races as I feel it would unfairly effect results, rankings and goal races for CT teams but think if they had their own series that doesn't slow down the MG's pace and works around it then it would be fine.
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| Roman |
Posted on 22-11-2015 16:14
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In what world could these stagiares affect the team goals of CT teams? The best stagiares from this season have TT 73, MO 71, HIL 69 and SP 70. With the idea allowing U25 unmaxed stagiares, the best riders would be MO 72, HIL 71, TT 74 and SP 74. Would really have these riders any chance against CT riders?
I don't see too much of a point in creating extra reports needed to be done because of this, the basic idea was mainly about using currently free RDs that are available in C2HC/C2 races for something that could be useful for the game. And it is not like we don't have something like that in HC races already, PT teams are already stealing points from PCT teams there. I think this could be a decent idea actually. If a PT/PCT team decides to invest money from their wage cap into their stagiares and creates a team, then any points gained there could be a nice reward for that. It really would not be like these riders would be able to gain anything huge there. In the similar time I even suggest to raise CT wage cap a little bit, so this could maybe help to raise the quality in CT a little bit to give stagiares even less chances for a good result.
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| Margh Norway |
Posted on 22-11-2015 17:27
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trekbmc wrote:
@Margh Norway: just going to raise the question of time (if I remember right, last season there were some problems with people wanting to spend a lot lot of time on race planning and had trouble making the deadline) won't this just increase the problem? (Of course this could be stopped by just having the screenshot but that is time consuming
Would say the extra option shouldn't change deadlines. Each manager can decide on his own how he spents his time for race planning. I don't think taking a look at stage info files would justify to add an extra day to the deadline.
trekbmc wrote:
Also what about people who don't understand what it means or only have a vague idea about what these stats means and the effect different numbers have? Like Japan cup, 0.19 uphill sprint and 0.4 mountain, does this mean that the sprint finish hill stat is worth 19% of sprint stat, or sprint stat is worth 81% and hill is worth 19%? The same with mountain on 0.4. (Of course all these could be clarified but I've spent time stage making and still don't really know, so I assume others won't  )
Good point. Personally I'm not into the detailed mechanics, too as it is sufficient to me to know that eg the higher the uphill sprint value the more hill stat plays a role. Nonetheless a kind of glossary would be fine.
Guess there are members able to explain the stage stats in detail, but the infos can be gathered vie side search, too.
eg typed "uphillsprint" and marked "only title" (search option) and was directed to a thread with this entry (need to say it's from 2011 and things may work differently in PCM15):
CrueTrue wrote:
Uphill sprint of 70 means that the hill stat counts 70, the SP stat 30 in a sprint.
Mountain/hill of 30 means that the HI stat counts 70, the mountain stat 30 on all climbs on the stage.
As others already said, it would be nice to have the stage details when the race planning starts. I'm just looking for an easy way to make this happen. Sticking a info pic or typing the data next to each stage sounds like an awful lot of work.
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| CountArach |
Posted on 22-11-2015 21:52
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Margh Norway wrote:
Wanna introduce an idea that may be helpful in pre season race planning.
Last season imo went great thanks to SN and the guys helping with the planning stuff plus the awesome work of the race reporting members.
But I got the impression that there are two things might be important to improve:
1. In a few painful cases reports had to be rewritten due to mistakes in the stage files. (time gaps set to one, wrong mountain value,...)
2. Managers (me included) were sometimes surprised by an almost unpredictable mountain value set by the game or the stage maker.
A solution can be:
Releasing the cds-files of any stage in pre-season (eg via dropbox download).
All important informations are stored in this file (just 20 to 25 kb in size), which can be opened easily with the stage viewer.
It will look like this (example: Japan Cup)
The stage viewer is just 10 MB in size and works without PCM, so you don't need to buy the game to work with this tool.
Advantages:
- this way a manager can decide by himself if he wants to take the few extra minutes to check the stage data.
- there's a chance for everyone to see if there were made mistakes (eg time gap set to 1) and to minimize the chances of reports 'written in vain'
- no reason for post race whining like "...if I just have known mountain value would be so important... mimimi..." 
This is a good idea but how about making people pay to see that file, perhaps more for PT and less for CT? We are always looking for more ways for people to spend their money that isn't training and this could represent paying for scouting of stages.
This would also mean that people who don't understand it get to keep money instead, or people can take a risk.
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| CountArach |
Posted on 22-11-2015 22:07
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Hey guys rather than all hitting the dislike button how about you actually argue why it is a bad idea...
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 22-11-2015 22:11
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CountArach wrote:
Hey guys rather than all hitting the dislike button how about you actually argue why it is a bad idea...
Well you could gain access to the stages easily without spending the money and use the stage editor... not the best idea imo.
Plus I think it shouldn't be hidden info, and that especially if changed from PCM's naturally generated ratio it should be noted in the profile thread. |
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| CountArach |
Posted on 22-11-2015 22:20
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FroomeDog99 wrote:
CountArach wrote:
Hey guys rather than all hitting the dislike button how about you actually argue why it is a bad idea...
Well you could gain access to the stages easily without spending the money and use the stage editor... not the best idea imo.
A valid point and one that I hadn't thought of. I agree in that case.
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 22-11-2015 22:24
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CountArach wrote:
Hey guys rather than all hitting the dislike button how about you actually argue why it is a bad idea...
Yeah of course, sorry.
I don't really like the idea at all because it would be unfair. People paying to see a stage, I believe that most who understand it would find them in an easier way and it would end up just being those without PCM using it. Also I doubt anyone would spend a lot of money to look at stages so therefore it would barely decrease the amount of money in the game as riders would be far more valuable than stage information.
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| jph27 |
Posted on 23-11-2015 12:42
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Just had an idea, so thought I would float it out there. Obviously, we have the band system across all 3 divisions in some form or another now and it has been a great success in my opinion - makes the HC selection process much quicker, and leads to interesting tactical decisions. However, I wonder if we could possibly work it into transfers whereby teams can trade race entries - obviously race days would have to be equalised, so everyone has the same amount of HC/C2HC RDs - as a way of taking more cash out of the system, and also as another tactical dimension. For example, a team consisting mainly of climbers and puncheurs would likely take HC Band 3, but would then have to ride Baltic Chain Tour. They would be unlikely to take the cobbles and sprints heavy Band 2, but with this system in place they could trade Baltic Chain Tour for another team's entry to Bayern Rundfahrt - and possibly offer up some spare cash as part of the deal. Obviously, it has its limits, but I think it could work quite well and offer an interesting new dynamic. |
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| SotD |
Posted on 23-11-2015 14:53
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In terms of the HC races I also think we need to look at whether or not the stats are put correct.
Imo MO could be higher - Atleast 78, while Sprint could also be 80 - Not that it would make any difference for me.
As far as I know the only riders to really perform well in the HC races were the likes of Valverde with 77/77 in MO/HI, and some riders being in lucky breakaways. I'm aware that we shouldn't be able to go down in ranks and win, but it is a much welcomed way of letting our domestiques be competitive. Most my riders were fighting for positions outside the points rank, yet I feel like I was one of the teams doing well. I also bought riders specifically for the HC bands - Like Martin Hacecký. Next season my best riders for the HC would be Vasyliv, Hacecký, Le Gac and Kastrantas. If a PCT team had those as their leader in a race they would be a laughing stock. I can't even bring riders such as Piter Campero, Mathieu Bernaudeau and Tom David.
So I really hope that we will be looking into the stats yet again, and maybe allow more one-dimensional riders being in the races, and less of the strong OVL riders perhaps.
A rider with 78MO, 77HI and 76TT should obviously be too strong, but why not allow a 78MO, 70HI and 69TT rider be there? He would be lucky to get in top 10, and mostly would only fight for 12-15th.
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 27-11-2015 09:51
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Just a thought but could we add a new standings goal to PCT of avoid relegation?
We've got an avoid relegation goal in the PT so there is precedent for it and for my team that would have be far more realistic than the top 20 goal that I took this year although I sill would have failed it quite badly.
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| SotD |
Posted on 30-11-2015 20:55
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I just went through the database and spotted a potentially dangerous trend in terms of the U23 races next season - I don't know if it has been spotted by you (SN) yet, but if not then here are some stats:
This season 236 riders were eligeble to ride the U23 World Championships
Next season 51 riders will be eligeble to ride the U23 World Championships
Normally it is not much of a problem, because you can just add more - But the level of competition might be an issue. People signing the young U23 riders probably signed them because they would be the best of the young riders - To get good l'Avenir results, U23 Worlds results and U25 jerseys.
So adding U23 riders that can already win the U23 World championships in their first season could mess with people planning ahead, which is not that great imo - Not that I will be hit by this. But adding too poor riders will increase the chance of a fluke World Champion, and while that might be OK - It does suck to have a pre-race favorite and then seeing the World Championships pan out like the nationals...
These are the favorites for different terrains next season (Top 5 for each):
Flat:
Rick Zabel - 81 SPR
Sondre Holst Enger - 81 SPR
Caleb Ewan - 78 SPR
Phil Bauhaus - 76 SPR
Alexander Edmondson - 75 SPR
Hill:
Matej Mohoric - 78 HI
Tanovitchii - 76 HI
Stefan Kung - 76 HI
Merhawi Kudus - 75 HI
Irakli Bablidze - 75 HI
Mountain:
Merhawi Kudus - 79 MO
Silvio Herklotz - 77 MO
Stefan Kung - 76 MO
Valens Ndayisenga - 76 MO
Gilles Heymes - 75 MO
Cobble:
Caleb Ewan - 67 COB
Silvio Herklotz - 67 COB
Nasser Ragaey - 66 COB
I don't know exactly how riders are trained, so the stats are estimated. I suspect that we are not going the mountainous way next season, so that eliminates a bunch of decent riders from this very limited pool of riders.
The sprinters clearly look the strongest, but will they have teams to control the race?
Caleb Ewan have Edmondson and a Free Agent.
Rick Zabel have Herklotz, Bauhaus and Williwohl.
Sondre Holst Enger have no-one.
Can we expect a sprint finish with that setup? I don't think so. And by picking a hilly route we are likely seeing the same - That a fluke attack wins the race.
I'm not sure how this can be dealt with - Or if it should be. But I felt like raising the question, and making aware of it. Atleast if it can't be dealt with for next season, then atleast to make sure we won't end up in a similar "problem" in the future.
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| CountArach |
Posted on 30-11-2015 21:37
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People signing the young U23 riders probably signed them because they would be the best of the young riders - To get good l'Avenir results, U23 Worlds results and U25 jerseys.
I doubt that anyone does it for that reason. You get no points from Avenir or U23 worlds, and the points from young rider jerseys are pitiful and often tend to be won by level 4 or maxed riders. I don't see a problem there.
So adding U23 riders that can already win the U23 World championships in their first season could mess with people planning ahead, which is not that great imo
I don't understand this point. Winning U23 worlds has literally no effect on the rest of the game.
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 30-11-2015 21:38
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Just want to point out that I don't think Kung is under 23 eligible next season, I'd love it if I was wrong but I think this was his last year, but you are right he will be 76MO 76HI next season.
And I'm surprised that there aren't any cobble talents coming through with the best being a sprinter and a climber/stage racer and not actual cobble guys.
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| SotD |
Posted on 30-11-2015 22:05
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CountArach wrote:
People signing the young U23 riders probably signed them because they would be the best of the young riders - To get good l'Avenir results, U23 Worlds results and U25 jerseys.
I doubt that anyone does it for that reason. You get no points from Avenir or U23 worlds, and the points from young rider jerseys are pitiful and often tend to be won by level 4 or maxed riders. I don't see a problem there.
I guess I am the only one then. I bought Vasyliv for the sole reason of having a strong climbing domestique for Lecuisinier, who could become the leader the season after.
CountArach wrote:
So adding U23 riders that can already win the U23 World championships in their first season could mess with people planning ahead, which is not that great imo
I don't understand this point. Winning U23 worlds has literally no effect on the rest of the game.
But if it's just random why have it? Then we could just simulate it and stop wasting peoples time by producing the race. For me the U23 race is one of the most important of the entire season, as it makes the rider hyped, and possibly being trained uselessly much. If Vasyliv was to win the U23 world championsip or the Tour de l'Avenir I would train him as much as possible.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 30-11-2015 22:19
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I've got to agree with Count. Avenir and U23 Worlds don't give rankings points so people should not be making signings based upon winning/doing well in those events.
But you can say the same about the Elite Worlds or about Nationals, and we all know a number of managers who sign riders for their NC possiblities and who would give a lot for the WC jersey on their rider.
Whether it's rational or not people sign young riders to do well in Avenir and the U23 worlds or the Elite worlds or NC's. Obviously going to say "if they don't give rankings let's quick sim to save time" is certainly a very extreme response, and you look at half the races we have and you could say let's save time on crap AI and just roll a dice to decide the winner.
The key point is that obviously we need a number of new U23 eligible additions. With the work Roman has done i'm sure that will happen. In terms of level, obviously Cobbles need actual big talents. Otherwise we could do with another year of relatively low big talent additions (80 or below, and only one or two of those) with most being in the 72-77 range.
I'd like to see some more U23's added at Lvl 3/4/Max and with 72-75 stats. But that's a personal thing just to get some more variety and competition for Youth events.
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 30-11-2015 23:55
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Kinda surprised by the very negative point of view on U23 races from some, I think they're great, as something different - and from a role playing point of view it absolutely makes sense that some teams make signings specifically for them, rather than all about ranking point possibility.
Will perhaps have a think about adding some younger 72-75 riders as maxed out, or close, just to give different options. Not going to do that for any talents though else they just get too many seasons at the top.
Needless to say that there will be many many more U23 eligible riders added. Some good, some more average - either way, more options for teams to look at.
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